The 2016 Toronto Blue Jays Thread - Page 344 - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

Enoch Root · 09-09-2016, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Why exactly does he have to be canned?

Watch Buck Showalter manage a game and then get back to me.

Enoch Root · 09-09-2016, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Estrada was struggling before that

Oh well then, that completely dismisses my point.

You are being an apologist now, just to be an apologist.

Enoch Root · 09-09-2016, 07:58 PM

And no, it was after the first 6-man break that Estrada's game went to ####

JiriHrdina · 09-09-2016, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Watch Buck Showalter manage a game and then get back to me.

Or you could outline what you think the problem with Gibby is

Enoch Root · 09-09-2016, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Or you could outline what you think the problem with Gibby is

I have been in this thread already. You don't agree, which is fine. But I don't owe you an explanation.

JiriHrdina · 09-09-2016, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Oh well then, that completely dismisses my point.

You are being an apologist now, just to be an apologist.

Not at all
Estrada struggled since the back problem
Dickey, Stroman have been inconsistent all year
Sanchez is Sanchez still
Happ is the only one who may have been impacted by the rotation. But that is still unproven hypothesis
Love how people trot out the apologist label when challenged to defend their opinions. Easy way out I guess

JiriHrdina · 09-09-2016, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I have been in this thread already. You don't agree, which is fine. But I don't owe you an explanation.

you are right you don't owe me anything. That is true. Never said you did.

dash_pinched · 09-09-2016, 08:05 PM

Geez, we need a Blue Jays win in the worst way, good posters are getting ornery with each other in here.

dino7c · 09-09-2016, 08:06 PM

remember when everyone was getting mad at people who said the Jays needed to pick it up or they were gonna totally blow it

Enoch Root · 09-09-2016, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Not at all
Estrada struggled since the back problem
Dickey, Stroman have been inconsistent all year
Sanchez is Sanchez still
Happ is the only one who may have been impacted by the rotation. But that is still unproven hypothesis
Love how people trot out the apologist label when challenged to defend their opinions. Easy way out I guess

It's trotted out when people make perpetual excuses.

The starting pitching was leading the league until the 6 starter situation

Now look at it.

Were there bad games, or struggles prior to that? Of course.

But the move killed their momentum and they haven't recovered yet.

JiriHrdina · 09-09-2016, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

It's trotted out when people make perpetual excuses.

The starting pitching was leading the league until the 6 starter situation

Now look at it.

Were there bad games, or struggles prior to that? Of course.

But the move killed their momentum and they haven't recovered yet.

What is the evidence on this looking at individual pitching performance while also considering Estradas back. At best we don't know what drove the decline but it is not clear to me that it is the six man rotation
At minimum without that Sanchez would have been out of the rotation

altogether

I also didn't provide excuses but rather alternative possible explanations. Not sure why that offends you so or must be labeled as being an apologist. What of the items outlined do you disagree with. Do you think JD is healthy? Estrada? Jose?

Enoch Root · 09-09-2016, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dash_pinched

Geez, we need a Blue Jays win in the worst way, good posters are getting ornery with each other in here.

You're right - apologies.

I think Gibby is a terrible manager, always have. And now I'm angry because they are spinning out of control.

And I think it is in large part to him not adjusting to what other teams are doing, as well as the 6-man rotation. And I think the players feel the same way.

But that doesn't warrant getting ornery here.

Karl · 09-09-2016, 08:13 PM

What a freaking choke job. Whole team playing like a steaming sack of rotten beans.

Yankees are leading the 'useless against every team but Jays' Rays 7-4 in a rain delay.

Only semi-good thing about tonight is that the Tigers beat the Os, that's it.

Gonna be sick to my stomach if we don't win at least 1 game from this series.

Karl · 09-09-2016, 08:15 PM

Over half the spectators who started here have now left the building.

Roof-Daddy · 09-09-2016, 08:17 PM

This team is done IMO. Their starting pitching has been struggling for awhile now and these AL East teams are taking them out behind the wood shed. Plus the bats have gone ice cold.

They're confidence is probably completely shot now too.

Karl · 09-09-2016, 08:17 PM

Wow Navarro, yikes! That was flat out brutal.

JiriHrdina · 09-09-2016, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

You're right - apologies.

I think Gibby is a terrible manager, always have. And now I'm angry because they are spinning out of control.

And I think it is in large part to him not adjusting to what other teams are doing, as well as the 6-man rotation. And I think the players feel the same way.

But that doesn't warrant getting ornery here.

And there is probably the deep and ugly core of our disagreement because we are on completely opposite sides of that - so we are going to always disagree from that starting point.
I think Gibby is a good manager who has never got enough respect and always far too much blame.
I think his approach is right for a veteran team - put them out there and get out of their way - and always have their back. He's not a guy that over manages. Is that the right approach? For this team I think it is but that is open to debate.

When I see fundamentals not being executed i tend to blame the player more than the manager, as I believe at this level they should be able to do that stuff.

Enoch Root · 09-09-2016, 08:28 PM

What was it, a couple weeks ago? Just before the big road trip to Baltimore, TB and NY...

Russell Martin is the hottest player on the team and one of the hottest players in baseball.

They acquire Navarro (which was a great move) and what does Gibby do?

He benches Martin, instead of having him DH, to get Navarro in. Then the next game was Dickey and Thole. And then they had an off day.

Yes, players - especially catchers - need rest. But they could have DH'd him.

Since then (well, September) he is batting .178

GirlySports · 09-09-2016, 08:30 PM

would be insane if the Yankees made the playoffs. Girardi has juggled that lineup amazingly.

JiriHrdina · 09-09-2016, 08:31 PM

I think that's exactly why he did that - to give him an extended break. Martin does tend to break down.
Again - these are decisions people can debate but there is a rationale behind them. I don't think that is what has driven the poor performance though.
They aren't getting the starting pitching - and that is death for any team.