American Politics Thread: Orange is the new POTUS (Archive)

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Texas Flames Fan

So your argument is that if policy could lower the crime rate of the state by up to 10% you wouldn't do it because it still leaves 90%? This rationalization of illegal immigration hurts my brain.

I wonder what the parents of this poor 15 year old girl that was murdered think about illegal immigration? Maybe a few posters need to step back and realize what is happening down here and maybe for a second put yourself in the parents shoes.

http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2017/...ts-identified/

My argument is that the numbers you provided are in lockstep with the amount of foreign-born Texans as a proportion of the total Texas population. Even then, only a fraction of them are "illegal" but you're using the crime statistics of what appears to be a proportional representation of immigration crimes as "illegal".

I can also find 2-10 stories about a legal Texan committing murder for every illegal immigrant murder story you can muster. My challenge to you is to find all the stories about illegal immigrant murders not covered by Breitbart or Fox News.

[ResAlien]

https://twitter.com/BoingBoing/statu...897687552?s=09

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

You aren't going to reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

There has always been a contingent of the population that is not interested in engaging in thoughtful discussion and debate.

There are posters in this thread who embody this, who routinely fail to even read contradictory information let alone respond to it.

It would be nice if the moderation team would use a bit of common sense when looking at a posters post history to determine if they are an honest broker or not, but they seem to favour looser moderation over more constructive discussion, so it's up to the individual posters to show some reason of their own and stop screaming into the wind.

I'll address this, since you are mentioning (criticizing?) the moderation team for how this thread and similar past threads have been handled.

We've tried a number of strategies for moderating political discussion. The fact is, it's very difficult. Most people (of any political stripe) smdont realize when they are being unfair, or when they are treating argument as fact, or engaging in various logical fallacies. Confirmation bias is real, and it's a human trait, by a right- or left- wing one.

Moreover, these discussions can be heated, especially online. Sometimes people are hyper-partisan, and can't see the flaws in their own "side", and other times people who see an issue differently come at it from incompatible ethical/moral standpoints. For instance, liberals tend to believe that our society is predicated partly on shared values of collective duty to the polity and tolerance for individual difference, while conservatives tend to believe in individual responsibility to fixed moral and ethical codes.

One issue is that moderators aren't immune to that either. Who am I to tell someone that their view isn't welcome here, simply because it doesn't accord with what I believe, and isn't based on values that I share? We don't censor political views, and as for whether posters are "honest brokers," we see that some posters are less intellectually honest, and less anchored to the world of "facts", but trust that this will be sorted out through the process of discourse. If your ideas are plainly better, more supportable by facts, and more supported by them, that will be plainly seen by anyone who reads this thread. We can't enforce that kind of "intellectual honesty" anymore than we can enforce adherence to one political stripe or another.

With all of that said, we will (and have) banned and penalized posters for being obviously and needlessly provocative, for insulting one another, or for being rude, or casting aspersions on the board as a whole, or pretending to be victimized by the fact that many others don't share their views. We also draw the line at racism, sexism, homophobia, and intolerance.

And in the end, this isn't easy--we have discussed is as a group a number of times. I'm not sure what else we can or should do, but if you have suggestions, send me a PM and we can have that discussion offline.

In the meantime, I can also tell you that we are currently watching this thread, and will lock it if certain behaviours (relentless ad hominems, obvious trolling, insults, etc.) continue.

[HockeyIlliterate]

Originally Posted by Drak

The problem with impeachment is it's a long drawn out process that doesn't necessarily lead to Trump leaving the WH. Hopefully he steps down. Manafort is in serious trouble, and other pieces will topple. People are going to jail.

I can't see Trump stepping down or leaving voluntarily. It just isn't in his nature to admit defeat, and there is no other way to describe resigning than as a defeat.

The Republican Party (at least those in Congress) are woefully short on people who care more about the country than their party or their job. Short of an explosive, 100% confirmed, rock-solid case against Trump, I just cannot see most Republicans being willing to go the impeachment route, at least not until it becomes apparent that Trump's issues are prohibiting (i) any Republican-desired legislation from being enacted; and (ii) reelection of Republicans themselves. Republicans will blame the lack of legislation being enacted on the Democrats, regardless of Trump, so I think that both prohibitions have to occur before anything gets done.

That all said, I don't see how impeaching Trump really solves much of anything for most Americans, and particularly those who voted for Trump in the first place.

Pence is a dullard, and would, as President, likely sign any bill the Republican Congress puts in front of him, even if the bill in question required his wife to wear a Burka and enslaved his daughters to work in a Congressional brothel. Quite simply, he would be a disaster for the working class Americans.

But let's say the Trump goes down, and Pence is somehow implicated as well. That would mean Ryan becomes President---the guy that wants to, among other things, gut the entitlements that supported him through high school and helped pay for his college tuition. How would he be any better than Trump or Pence?

The whole thing is a mess.

[Texas Flames Fan]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

I wonder what the families of the 9 people killed by Dylann Roof think about American White Supremacists with guns?

and lol at quoting Breitbart.

What about? What about? What about?

Again on topic, sorry for "triggering" you liberals with Brietbart, I realize that can blow your minds. See below ABC News Link with more details on the story.

http://abc7chicago.com/news/authorit...teen-/1787688/

[DuffMan]

The funny thing is, the Republican No's on Trumpcare, are no because it is too helpful for the poor and elderly.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by Texas Flames Fan

What about? What about? What about?

Again on topic, sorry for "triggering" you liberals with Brietbart, I realize that can blow your minds. See below ABC News Link with more details on the story.

lol

[nik-]

It's a well known fact that "triggering liberals" directly improves the life of Trump voters. Resulting in an average of a 12% increase in salary and a greatly improved retirement plan.

[ernie]

The facts are clear and have been clear for anyone who actually wants to listen. From what I recall:

Immigrant populations as a whole have statistically lower crime rates than non-immigrant populations. When income levels etc are taken into account typically much lower.

Crimes perpetrated by immigrant populations also skew to less violent crime (all crime is bad I get that).

Dishonest Donald and his ilk use total immigrant population raw crime numbers rather than talking about RATES which normalize data. Why normalize when you can scare people with big numbers?

Dishonest Donald and his ilk very rarely use any sort of comparison and simply float a number that is completely out of context with anything. But "oooo that's a big scary number".

Dishonest Donald and his ilk do not typically separate immigrant from illegal immigrant and given that they don't you know EXACTLY what their end game is if they were ever to get everything they want.

And yes UNBIASED reviews of news sources have straight out said Briebart isn't worth anyones time (and on the flip side there are also liberal equivalents that aren't worth reading).

[DuffMan]

Well, you don't have to look far to see how well Dishonest Donalds rhetoric works on some people, from Texas, and the such.

[dash_pinched]

Donald J. Trump‏@realDonaldTrump
Big day for healthcare. Working hard!

[HotHotHeat]

Originally Posted by Texas Flames Fan

Facts, facts, facts.

I have some facts, facts, facts for you.

Immigrants are less likely to commit serious crimes or be behind bars than the native-born, and high rates of immigration are associated with lower rates of violent crime and property crime.

http://www.sentencingproject.org/wp-...lic-Safety.pdf

Originally Posted by Texas Flames Fan

Maybe a few posters need to step back and realize what is happening down here

This quote almost makes me sick. What's going on is you're outing yourself as racist. Enough with this guy already. Go back to r/T_D.

[Lanny_McDonald]

@iowaflamesfan

I thank you, and the rest of the mods, for the job you do. It isn't easy and I appreciate the reminders you provide along the way. I think you guys do a great job allowing for the ebb and flow of discourse, especially on hot button points. Your work is appreciated.

[dobbles]

At the risk of yet another post not related to the topic and instead discussing people, i want to say this:

As an American, I have always enjoyed these threads on CP.

A little backstory; feel free to skip this paragraph. I am someone that grew up in a household below the poverty line only to see myself get some lucky breaks and a whole lot of help to turn into a decently successful person with a nice house in the suburbs with a wife and a couple of great kids. I grew up in a town that is stereotypical of what was talked about in the election. It was even mentioned by Obama in his famous convention speech years ago: Galesburg, Illinois. Its a small town of 30,000 or so that has seen a lot of blue collar job loss. The biggest being the Maytag refrigerator factory that went to Reynosa Mexico 15 years ago or so. My sister worked there and so did my step mom and lots of other people I know. So when the election talked about blue collar workers and uneducated people and how they did or didn't vote, I was often very interested in what was said. Because it represented who I am and where I came from. Personally, I will always support social welfare because it is the only reason I made it to where I am today.

With that said, the reason I love these threads is it gives me perspective on these issues from way different people with way different experiences than me. Unlike most, I do enjoy having my views challenged. I do like to learn. So it saddens me that these threads can get derailed by trolls. I left a previous version when someone like illuminaiughty trolled it and it became a cesspool. I think it's time I leave again. And the reason I say this is that I want readers and mods especially to know that people like that drive off others. And while I know trying to moderate a forum so large must be terribly difficult, I feel you are all too often lenient on people that have no real desire to converse. They just want to argue and cause trouble. There are times that posters like peter or corsi can get on my nerves, but I always respect their intellect and dedication to putting out fleshed out positions.

Anywho, have fun with the thread guys. I'll be down here in red America trying to survive the s%&t show we have put ourselves in.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Well said dobbles. Thanks for sharing a little bit of your life story. Some people tend to forget that there are people on this board living through this gong show, and yes, it has ramifications on our daily lives. It's easy to sit in the peanut gallery as an observer, but being on the playing field makes it much different. And yes, we can get a little uppity as a result, especially when the trolls come to town with their empty fact-free rhetoric. Don't give up on us dobbles, the more voices of experience matter!

[octothorp]

So Nunes states that through November, December, and January, there was legally-obtained intelligence information gathered on the transition team; that it was obtained incidentally through FISA investigations separate from any Russia investigation, and that this information has found its way into 'dozens' of IC reports.

[ResAlien]

Originally Posted by octothorp

So Nunes states that through November, December, and January, there was legally-obtained intelligence information gathered on the transition team; that it was obtained through FISA investigations separate from any Russia investigation, and that this information has found its way into 'dozens' of IC community reports.

I anxiously await Don's "see I was right!" meltdown. How does one spin this in a positive manner for the Republican administration?

[RougeUnderoos]

Spicer back to his whiny, belligerent best today. Yesterday he almost seemed like a normal person, but that didn't last long.

"For the eighth time, I don't know!"

[direwolf]

Good piece from Rolling Stone's Matt Taibbi on the mess we're currently in. It's long (and incredibly depressing), but worth a read.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...troyer-w473144

In the early days of his administration, while his Democratic opposition was still reeling from November's defeat, Trump managed to stuff the top of his Cabinet with a jaw-dropping collection of perverts, tyrants and imbeciles, the likes of which Washington has never seen.

We always assumed there was a goal behind it all: cattle cars, race war, autocracy. But those were last century's versions of tyranny. It would make perfect sense if modern America's contribution to the genre were far dumber.

Trump in the White House may just be a monkey clutching history's biggest hand grenade. Yes, he's always one step ahead of us, and more dangerous than any smart person, and we can never for a minute take our eyes off him.

But while we keep looking for his hidden agenda, it's our growing addiction to the spectacle of his car-wreck presidency that is the real threat. He is already making idiots and accomplices of us all, bringing out the worst in each of us, making us dumber just by watching. Even if Trump never learns to govern, after four years of this we will forget what civilization ever looked like – and it will be programming, not policy, that will have changed the world.

[DuffMan]

Bannons directive

Quote:
In the early days of his administration, while his Democratic opposition was still reeling from November's defeat, Trump managed to stuff the top of his Cabinet with a jaw-dropping collection of perverts, tyrants and imbeciles, the likes of which Washington has never seen.

Quote:
We always assumed there was a goal behind it all: cattle cars, race war, autocracy. But those were last century's versions of tyranny. It would make perfect sense if modern America's contribution to the genre were far dumber.

Trump in the White House may just be a monkey clutching history's biggest hand grenade. Yes, he's always one step ahead of us, and more dangerous than any smart person, and we can never for a minute take our eyes off him.

But while we keep looking for his hidden agenda, it's our growing addiction to the spectacle of his car-wreck presidency that is the real threat. He is already making idiots and accomplices of us all, bringing out the worst in each of us, making us dumber just by watching. Even if Trump never learns to govern, after four years of this we will forget what civilization ever looked like – and it will be programming, not policy, that will have changed the world.