Israel declares war on Hamas

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by _Q_

It's the idea that the Jewish people are a distinct ethnic group that are direct descendants of the biblical Jews. It was/is a national revival movement that was a reaction to 19th century European antisemitism. It sought to create a homeland for the Jewish people in Palestine. After israel was established, it sought to maintain israel as the Jewish state.

Jewish people are an ethnic group(s), which is a fact. At least whatever an ethnic group is, that includes Jews. We are also descendents of the biblical jews, one and the same. Dig in Israel and you reach the jews, below all the other groups that evicted jews.

While it is flattering to think that my ethnicity is a reaction to Europeans, that would be wrong as well. Jewish people didn't just want a homeland that would make them safe, they wanted what they had to leave from, and had been moving back to Israel for hundreds of years.

They created Israel as a Jewish state with the intention of providing rights for everyone there, not just Jews. That is the opposite of their neighbors, who held jews as second class citizens or worse. In fact, many of those same countries offer no citizenship to Palestinians. Israel is about 20% Palestinian, who are citizens of Israel. I should also mention, Palestinian until fairly recently included both Jews and Muslims. None of what I am saying means Muslims from the region don't need a place, but when the land was chopped up after WW2, Israel got the smallest slice and was happy with it, as were many Muslims who still live there today. Israeli rights have been prosperous for them, as it has been for Jews, far more prosperous than its neighbors. Seems the political system in Israel is working.

Originally Posted by _Q_

It is also a form of ethno-nationalism that isn't really how we view nation states anymore.

This is also wrong. Israel protects the rights of all of its citizens, regardless of religion. While TikToc would say different, and again I am flattered, it isn't true. There is no apartheid, nothing of the sort. No matter how many Antifa print signs for protests, they are wrong.

When Israel became an independent nation, despite the lies, they were not driving people out of the country due to religion or language or color. They made it clear, Israel will be land for everyone that supports it (it being equal rights, freedom of religion, speech, women, etc). Not everyone was on the same page.

They were quickly invaded by five plus armies with the goal of destroying Israel. These same nations do not give Palestinians rights (unless I am mistaken about something on that).

Originally Posted by _Q_

No I don't believe an ethnostate should have been established anywhere else either.

So Jordan, Syria, India, Pakistan etc. are all somehow wrong?\

As we speak, Pakistan is kicking out Afghans, Yemen dealing with war and 1,000's of deaths, Syria civil war, Lebanon, Iran etc. Israel is the smallest of them all, offers the most rights and the neighbors openly call for their death (not all but most), and this is the nation you have a problem with.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Fl4me5

So do you believe that Palestinians should recover all of the land of Israel? Because that would, based on regional history, result in an ethnostate.

Israel should never have been established in the first place. But no, I don't think all the jews should leave at this point.

I think the most just solution is 1 state, with freedom and equality for everyone from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean sea.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Jewish people are an ethnic group(s), which is a fact. At least whatever an ethnic group is, that includes Jews. We are also descendents of the biblical jews, one and the same. Dig in Israel and you reach the jews, below all the other groups that evicted jews.

Why does this matter? If you dig under your house at the bottom you will get my people - and the original inhabitants of Alberta. Are you suggesting I have the right to violence and the right to settle in your living room? For me to kick your children to the curb, throw my feet up on your couch, and leave you with another place to live? Of course not, that would be absurd.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Jewish people are an ethnic group(s), which is a fact. At least whatever an ethnic group is, that includes Jews. We are also descendents of the biblical jews, one and the same. Dig in Israel and you reach the jews, below all the other groups that evicted jews.

While it is flattering to think that my ethnicity is a reaction to Europeans, that would be wrong as well. Jewish people didn't just want a homeland that would make them safe, they wanted what they had to leave from, and had been moving back to Israel for hundreds of years.

They created Israel as a Jewish state with the intention of providing rights for everyone there, not just Jews. That is the opposite of their neighbors, who held jews as second class citizens or worse. In fact, many of those same countries offer no citizenship to Palestinians. Israel is about 20% Palestinian, who are citizens of Israel. I should also mention, Palestinian until fairly recently included both Jews and Muslims. None of what I am saying means Muslims from the region don't need a place, but when the land was chopped up after WW2, Israel got the smallest slice and was happy with it, as were many Muslims who still live there today. Israeli rights have been prosperous for them, as it has been for Jews, far more prosperous than its neighbors. Seems the political system in Israel is working.



This is also wrong. Israel protects the rights of all of its citizens, regardless of religion. While TikToc would say different, and again I am flattered, it isn't true. There is no apartheid, nothing of the sort. No matter how many Antifa print signs for protests, they are wrong.

When Israel became an independent nation, despite the lies, they were not driving people out of the country due to religion or language or color. They made it clear, Israel will be land for everyone that supports it (it being equal rights, freedom of religion, speech, women, etc). Not everyone was on the same page.

They were quickly invaded by five plus armies with the goal of destroying Israel. These same nations do not give Palestinians rights (unless I am mistaken about something on that).



So Jordan, Syria, India, Pakistan etc. are all somehow wrong?\

As we speak, Pakistan is kicking out Afghans, Yemen dealing with war and 1,000's of deaths, Syria civil war, Lebanon, Iran etc. Israel is the smallest of them all, offers the most rights and the neighbors openly call for their death (not all but most), and this is the nation you have a problem with.

Nope, you're wrong

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/art...e-jews-a-race/

The short answer is no — Jews are not a race. People who identify as Jewish include individuals of enormously diverse geographic origins and physical appearances, making the idea that Jews could easily be designated a race in the sense of shared physical or biological characteristics implausible.

In fact the idea that the jews of Europe were/are separate from the local community is rooted in the same anti-semitism that the jews were attempting to escape.

And quit with your racist garbage when talking about how terrible the "surrounding countries" are. They're all flawed in their own ways. That's neither here nor there.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

What do you suppose is fueling this hatred?

Here’s what someone once said on the matter:

FWIW.

I am Jewish, and my stance on the issue is that Israel is an overfunded, over armed, bully in that region of the world. What are the Palestinians supposed to do? Roll over on their backs, and let the Israeli's put a bullet in their head? Because if given the opportunity, Israeli's would, in a heartbeat both literally and figuratively. Half of the Israeli's would line up to pull the trigger, and smile when they did it, the hatred is that deep. Israeli's view Palestinians as sub human garbage, that are less than dogs. And treat them as such. What are the Palestinians supposed to do? Let that happen? Just roll over and die when the world placed the Israeli's in their back yard?

I am not defending the actions of Hamas, they have done some horrid things to. But let's play a little game. As the landlord, I'm gonna come over to your house, with a family you have never met. Then I am going to give them half the house. Eventually though they force you to live in the basement. While they are upstairs enjoying a juicy T-Bone they made in your stainless steel appliances, eating it sitting on your leather sofa, enjoying the Flames game, while you get to sit in the dank basement on a lawn chair, enjoying a can of beans you made on a coleman camp stove listening to the game on transistor radio with a blown speaker. Worse yet, the neighbours have given them the money to build a giant door keeping you out, and supplied them with crate loads of guns to keep you down there. At your disposal you have a flare gun, and a baseball bat.

I don't know about you, but I would be more than willing to die to fight myself out of that situation too, because it beats sitting in a dank basement for the rest of my life.

People have to be able to look at the situation from both sides, and not just look at is as Hamas being "A bunch of crazy Muslims." The anti-Palestinian camp, is just as guilty of being anti-Muslim, as the pro-Palestinian camp is being accused of being Anti-Semetic. They just aren't as vocal about it.

No idea who. Just… someone… from the history books.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Or what about the dozen plus other countries created when Israel was created? They always seem to be ignored by the 'anti-Zionists'.

Numerous countries were created as a result of the fall of the Ottoman empire (which was true colonialism). That included Israel and much of the middle east.

I personally am against forming new nations on the basis of religious and/or ethnic groups. Looking at places such as the former Yugoslavia, they've gone from ethnically integrated places living in relative peace to segregated nations in a state of tension. Ultimately Yugoslavia failed, so maybe I'm the naive one.

That said, what you describe in your next post is the aspect of Israel that I think should absolutely be latched onto/expanded:

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Israel protects the rights of all of its citizens, regardless of religion.

...

They made it clear, Israel will be land for everyone that supports it (it being equal rights, freedom of religion, speech, women, etc).

These are the parts of Israel that need to be emphasized. In my opinion, having a nation explicitly tied to a religion is at odds of all religions being free and equal. There are many parts of being an Israeli that seem to be different if you are Jewish (gaining citizenship, etc.)

Hateful people are going to latch onto anything they can to appeal to their sense of tribalism. This is not excusable, but Israel as a multi-cultural, religiously diverse nation for all rather than a Jewish nation really defuses that angle of things. Palestinians should be crawling all over themselves to try and move to Israel. I agree with _Q_ in that ultimately the whole thing should be one state. If people can truly live as equals, that is the path.

Could someone obviously Palestinian walk down the main streets of Tel Aviv today and be treated as an equal?

[Fl4me5]

Originally Posted by Leondros

Why does this matter? If you dig under your house at the bottom you will get my people - and the original inhabitants of Alberta. Are you suggesting I have the right to violence and the right to settle in your living room? For me to kick your children to the curb, throw my feet up on your couch, and leave you with another place to live? Of course not, that would be absurd.

If reparations included (which they arguably have - I’m not an expert on this so don’t attack me) designating specific areas of indigenous land that are protected, and Canadians started lobbing rockets and suicide bombings in those lands - I would give you every right to defend yourself and fight back.

[_Q_]

Details about the deal that Hamas agreed to

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/...l-hamas-agreed

The agreement is a complicated one and would involve three phases, each of which would last six weeks.

In the first phase, there would be a temporary cessation of hostilities between Hamas and Israel as well as a withdrawal of Israeli forces to the east, away from the more heavily-populated areas of Gaza, and towards the border between Israel and the Palestinian enclave. Israeli airplanes and drones would also stop flying over Gaza for 10 hours each day, and for 12 hours on days when captives are released.

Hamas would gradually release 33 captives (whether captives who are alive or the remains of captives who have died) in the first phase. The captives will be women, anyone above the age of 50, those who are sick or non-soldiers under the age of 19. For each civilian Israeli captive released alive, Israel would release 30 Palestinians it has detained. For every female soldier released by Hamas, Israel would release 50 Palestinians.

The withdrawal of Israeli forces would allow displaced Palestinian civilians to return to their homes across Gaza, which would occur gradually as Hamas releases captives. Separately, the deal stipulates that reconstruction work in Gaza must begin in this phase, as well as the flow of aid, and that UNRWA and other relief organisations be allowed to work to help civilians.

In the second phase of the deal, there will be a permanent end to military operations and a full Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, as well as another prisoner swap, this time involving all the remaining Israeli men, including soldiers. The Israelis would be released in return for an as yet unspecified number of Palestinian prisoners.

The third phase of the deal would see an exchange of the remains of captives and prisoners held by both sides. On the development side, this phase would involve a three to five year reconstruction plan for Gaza, and, perhaps most significantly, an end to the Israeli blockade of the enclave.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Here’s what someone once said on the matter:



No idea who. Just… someone… from the history books.

This isn't the checkmate you think it is. And Bravo, digging up a 10 year old post that took me 10 minutes to find.... I figured it looked familiar as it kinda echoes something I said in this very thread. You are obsessed my friend.

My view on this thing has been very consistent even in this thread. The first post I put in this thread was pointing out that I felt Israel had gone to far. I am perfectly aware of that, and I am OK admitting that. Unlike your antisemitic self.

I am OK pointing out the flaws with Israeli Jews and/or Israel.... as a Jew. But the second you even try and direct any criticism at Hamas/Palestine. The anti-semitic terrorist sympathisers like yourself pounce on any morsel to virtue signal for the terrorists.

Shouldn't you be dying your hair blue and bullying some 18 year old Jewish kid on a University campus somewhere?

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by _Q_

If 90% of jews are zionists, as you claim (which i doubt), then 90% of jews are wrong. You can be a jew that isn't a zionist. You can be a zionist that isn't a jew. Hell, you can even be a Zionist anti-semite.

Nothing controversial about that.

Originally Posted by _Q_

Nope, you're wrong

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/art...e-jews-a-race/



In fact the idea that the jews of Europe were/are separate from the local community is rooted in the same anti-semitism that the jews were attempting to escape.

And quit with your racist garbage when talking about how terrible the "surrounding countries" are. They're all flawed in their own ways. That's neither here nor there.

Jews were an ostracized group in Europe and a distinct ethnic group that for various reasons rarely ever mixed with non Jews. Ashkenazi Jews may have been integrated into parts of European society but a Jew in Poland was far more related to a Jew in Belgium than to any of their Polish neighbours. Hell, a Jew from Poland is far more related to a Jew in Tunisia and a Jew in Syria than they were with ethnic Poles or to any other host population where Jews lived in Europe. If Jews were not separate from European society there would have been at least some intermixing with Jews and non Jews but it was a rare phenomenon compared to the rate that other European communities mixed with each other. Jews were more assimilated in western europe but even so Jews were still looked at as the “other” and antisemitism was present in every community and country Jews immigrated into. Ashkenazi Jewish society and culture developed and was founded in Europe, but Ashkenazi Jews were never not seen as outsiders. If Jews were fully part of the European community why couldn’t Europeans stop killing Jews?

Being Jewish of course is not a race, it is an ethnoreligion.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by pylon

This isn't the checkmate you think it is. And Bravo, digging up a 10 year old post that took me 10 minutes to find.... I figured it looked familiar as it kinda echoes something I said in this very thread. You are obsessed my friend.

My view on this thing has been very consistent even in this thread. The first post I put in this thread was pointing out that I felt Israel had gone to far. I am perfectly aware of that, and I am OK admitting that. Unlike your antisemitic self.

I am OK pointing out the flaws with Israeli Jews and/or Israel.... as a Jew. But the second you even try and direct any criticism at Hamas/Palestine. The anti-semitic terrorist sympathisers like yourself pounce on any morsel to virtue signal for the terrorists.

Shouldn't you be dying your hair blue and bullying some 18 year old Jewish kid on a University campus somewhere?

The 18 year old Jewish kids at the protests you just finished calling Nazis? Yeah, I’m good man. (just so we’re clear, comparing Jews to Nazis IS anti-semitic, right? I mean, while we’re throwing the word around).

Between that and brushing off dead Palestinian kids because, you know, some university kids you for sure know said some bad #### and because some of those dead babies voted for Hamas once or something, I think you’ve got the child abuse angle covered well enough for the both of us.

It wasn’t meant to be a checkmate, just showing Fuzz you had the answer once. But good to know it triggered you into… four insults?… just because I quoted it. So, if it wasn’t a checkmate, it sure was something.

Maybe worry less about what colour my hair is and more about being nearly 50 and still not able to call yourself a grown up.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Beninho

Jews were an ostracized group in Europe and a distinct ethnic group that for various reasons rarely ever mixed with non Jews. Ashkenazi Jews may have been integrated into parts of European society but a Jew in Poland was far more related to a Jew in Belgium than to any of their Polish neighbours. Hell, a Jew from Poland is far more related to a Jew in Tunisia and a Jew in Syria than they were with ethnic Poles or to any other host population where Jews lived in Europe. If Jews were not separate from European society there would have been at least some intermixing with Jews and non Jews but it was a rare phenomenon compared to the rate that other European communities mixed with each other. Jews were more assimilated in western europe but even so Jews were still looked at as the “other” and antisemitism was present in every community and country Jews immigrated into. If Jews were fully part of the European community why couldn’t Europeans stop killing Jews?

Being Jewish of course is not a race, it is an ethnoreligion.

That sounds like a European problem that was never dealt with and just dumped on the middle east.

[BigThief]

Originally Posted by Wormius

People believe this?

Really really really ignorant boomers who think parroting any and all Facebook memes they see (blue hair!) as brilliant

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by _Q_

That sounds like a European problem that was never dealt with and just dumped on the middle east.

It sounds like you don’t know much about Jews, and given the fact that Jews were also persecuted in the middle east well before the establishment of Israel that seems to be a bit disingenuous of a statement.

It’s ok to admit you aren’t as educated in the history of Jews and may not understand why many Jews feel connected to Israel. I can admit I have a lack of education regarding Palestinians and can learn more. But you seem to be stuck in this “well jews shouldnt be here anyway” train of thought and I don’t think that is a good way at looking this. But hey you do you.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Israel should never have been established in the first place. But no, I don't think all the jews should leave at this point.

I think the most just solution is 1 state, with freedom and equality for everyone from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean sea.

This is pure nonsense. If Israel opened its borders for anyone and everyone, there would be no Israel. You know this perfectly well. The ideal state is status quo for those living there, with rights, and freedoms and all the other benefits Israel offers. Bringing into the country the same people wishing death to Israel is not a good idea.

Israel is a country, just like Jordan is a country, just like Lebanon, just like Syria, just like Egypt. None of those countries have to let in people nor do you expect them to. Israel is not taking you up on your advice since it is suicide.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Leondros

Why does this matter? If you dig under your house at the bottom you will get my people - and the original inhabitants of Alberta. Are you suggesting I have the right to violence and the right to settle in your living room? For me to kick your children to the curb, throw my feet up on your couch, and leave you with another place to live? Of course not, that would be absurd.

Well, hard to respond when your post is filled with hateful rhetoric. Israel isn't in the business of kicking people out of houses, despite what TikToc says.

Israel didn't settle in anyone's living room or whatever you think is happening.

Why it does matter is Israel was one of many nations in the middle east that were un-colonized from the Ottoman Empire (and others before it). Jews were there and got a portion of the land, the smallest portion, while Islamic nations got the rest.

Israel gave equal rights to everyone that was there.

Not really sure what else to add based on whatever your wrote.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

The 18 year old Jewish kids at the protests you just finished calling Nazis? Yeah, I’m good man. (just so we’re clear, comparing Jews to Nazis IS anti-semitic, right? I mean, while we’re throwing the word around).

Between that and brushing off dead Palestinian kids because, you know, some university kids you for sure know said some bad #### and because some of those dead babies voted for Hamas once or something, I think you’ve got the child abuse angle covered well enough for the both of us.

It wasn’t meant to be a checkmate, just showing Fuzz you had the answer once. But good to know it triggered you into… four insults?… just because I quoted it. So, if it wasn’t a checkmate, it sure was something.

Maybe worry less about what colour my hair is and more about being nearly 50 and still not able to call yourself a grown up.

What in gods green earth are you reading, I never did any of those things?

The open anti-semitism is coming from the Hamas/Woke student side.

And never once, did I brush off dead children. It's an absolute tragedy and needs to stop. Raping people. And killing children are both horrific acts.

It is sad to me, my last post on this website is to defend being gaslit by.... I don't know what type of evil you are... but here we are.

You are a typical leftist. All or nothing. I have had a pretty moderate down the middle view on this whole thing, calling out both sides. But like the radical leftist you are, that's just not enough.

Be well, and I hope you find peace in your life.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by _Q_

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/art...e-jews-a-race/

The short answer is no — Jews are not a race. People who identify as Jewish include individuals of enormously diverse geographic origins and physical appearances, making the idea that Jews could easily be designated a race in the sense of shared physical or biological characteristics implausible.

I didn't say Jews were a race. That is a different from ethnicity. They are both just words, but those words have meanings.

Originally Posted by _Q_

And quit with your racist garbage when talking about how terrible the "surrounding countries" are. They're all flawed in their own ways. That's neither here nor there.

They certainly are flawed, that is exactly why we are having this conversation. Several of those nations decided Israel shouldn't exist. That is a big enough flaw that we should talk about it. Not sure how that makes me the racist one, since you are the one saying Israel shouldn't exist.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Well, hard to respond when your post is filled with hateful rhetoric. Israel isn't in the business of kicking people out of houses, despite what TikToc says.

Israel didn't settle in anyone's living room or whatever you think is happening.

Why it does matter is Israel was one of many nations in the middle east that were un-colonized from the Ottoman Empire (and others before it). Jews were there and got a portion of the land, the smallest portion, while Islamic nations got the rest.

Israel gave equal rights to everyone that was there.

Not really sure what else to add based on whatever your wrote.

No, never!



Unreal.


No wonder your views are so crooked, you can't even acknowledge what is happening int the west bank.

But after weeks of intense settler violence in the aftermath of the Hamas attack on Israel on 7 October, Zanuta’s 150 residents have made a collective decision to leave. Armed settlers – some in reservist army uniforms, some covering their faces – have begun breaking into their homes at night, beating up adults, destroying and stealing belongings, and terrifying the children
.

After decades of a desperate fight to cling on to their land, the community has decided they have lost.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-army-settlers


Open your eyes.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

I personally am against forming new nations on the basis of religious and/or ethnic groups. Looking at places such as the former Yugoslavia, they've gone from ethnically integrated places living in relative peace to segregated nations in a state of tension. Ultimately Yugoslavia failed, so maybe I'm the naive one.

Yet Israel is doing very well. And if things were different, there would be no Jews in the region at all, since every neighbor kicked them out.

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

That said, what you describe in your next post is the aspect of Israel that I think should absolutely be latched onto/expanded:

These are the parts of Israel that need to be emphasized. In my opinion, having a nation explicitly tied to a religion is at odds of all religions being free and equal. There are many parts of being an Israeli that seem to be different if you are Jewish (gaining citizenship, etc.)

Hateful people are going to latch onto anything they can to appeal to their sense of tribalism. This is not excusable, but Israel as a multi-cultural, religiously diverse nation for all rather than a Jewish nation really defuses that angle of things. Palestinians should be crawling all over themselves to try and move to Israel. I agree with _Q_ in that ultimately the whole thing should be one state. If people can truly live as equals, that is the path.

Could someone obviously Palestinian walk down the main streets of Tel Aviv today and be treated as an equal?

Yes, a Muslim can walk freely in Israel, could live there and work there too. There is no segregation at all. Except for Muslim neighborhoods, where it can get iffy for other religions to live there. Can a jew walk around in West Bank or Gaza? Not a good idea, but possible (not all areas).