Israel declares war on Hamas

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by pylon

The elimination of Israel and the killing of all Jews within its borders is one of the core tenets of Hamas.

And their citizens voted for this/Hamas. So by proxy, is anyone supporting Hamas/Palestine not also in favor of this same ideology?

Again, Israel has certainly cranked the dial to 11 on this whole conflict, but let's not ignore the very common fact that large portion of Palestinians want all Jews dead.

This has been discussed ad nauseam. The average age of Palestinians is 17 years old. The majority was not even alive the last time Hamas was voted in in 2006...

[Zary's-Mustache]

Originally Posted by Wormius

People believe this?

And even if they do, does this mean all of Israel us responsible for the actions of their genocidal prime minister?

Or is that only for Hamas and Palestinians.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by pylon

The elimination of Israel and the killing of all Jews within its borders is one of the core tenets of Hamas.

And their citizens voted for this/Hamas. So by proxy, is anyone supporting Hamas/Palestine not also in favor of this same ideology?

Again, Israel has certainly cranked the dial to 11 on this whole conflict, but let's not ignore the very common fact that large portion of Palestinians want all Jews dead.

This is just justifying collective punishment, which, as a Jewish person, you should probably understand isn't an acceptable way to go about things.


Crafty how you connected citizens who vote to Hamas, and then Hamas to all supporters of Palestinians though. Good stuff. Does that make it easier for you to be accepting of the needless deaths of children?

[Agamemnon]

Not taking sides one way or another (here/now...) - but anyone saying 'this started Oct 7' doesn't seem to have any sense of history regarding this conflict. It started well before then, and to disregard history prior to Oct 7 is... fanciful? Ignorant? Serving a specific argument?

[ThePrince]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Fair question! I actually addressed this in November 2023 and have posted it two more times (this is the third) over the past two days:

I really don't understand the "nObOdY hAs BeTtEr SugGeStIoNs" crowd. Have they done zero reading on the subject and just blindly support everything Israel does?

https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-eas...-gaza-c275ed12

When even your rich daddy who loves to justify and pay for everything you do is telling you you're wrong, maybe it's time to change up tactics. Even they think you're bombing too indiscriminately and need to stop killing civilians for fun.

[Flacker]

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

And even if they do, does this mean all of Israel us responsible for the actions of their genocidal prime minister?

Or is that only for Hamas and Palestinians.

Hamas already held the citizens of Israel responsible on Oct 7th.

I greatly disagree with the scale and methods of Israel's response, but maybe don't throw stones from your glass house.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Elimination of Israel as a core tenet of Hamas is arguable. The killing of all Jews within the territory is most definitely not.

Even if we are to accept those two items to be core tenets of hamas, is it OK to punish a civilian population for being ruled by a government you don't like? That's kind of the Bin Laden argument. Because of America's transgressions against Muslims, all Americans must pay the price. That's the way a terrorist thinks and behaves.

I am just asking questions.

I am about 5 months shy of my 50th orbit around the sun, and I am seeing language and actions towards Jewish and Western culture/people that I thought were long buried in the past. It doesn't take more than a few minutes of searching social media to find straight out, open antisemitism on North American streets. People accosting born and raised North American Jewish students, civilians and seniors that have absolutely nothing to do with anything happening in Israel. In Michigan chants of death to America/Death to Israel in the open, in the streets...

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opini...t/73288232007/

It won't take much more of this to trigger a culture war in our own backyard that will get very ugly, very fast.

[Zary's-Mustache]

Originally Posted by Flacker

Hamas already held the citizens of Israel responsible on Oct 7th.

I greatly disagree with the scale and methods of Israel's response, but maybe don't throw stones from your glass house.

Believe it or not I am not a Hamas member.

[Zary's-Mustache]

Originally Posted by pylon

I am just asking questions.

I am about 5 months shy of my 50th orbit around the sun, and I am seeing language and actions towards Jewish and Western culture/people that I thought were long buried in the past. It doesn't take more than a few minutes of searching social media to find straight out, open antisemitism on North American streets. People accosting born and raised North American Jewish students, civilians and seniors that have absolutely nothing to do with anything happening in Israel. In Michigan chants of death to America/Death to Israel in the open, in the streets...

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opini...t/73288232007/

It won't take much more of this to trigger a culture war in our own backyard that will get very ugly, very fast.

Which is all awful.

You don't even have to leave this thread to see the anti Muslim and anti Palestinian vitriol. Actually just the last few pages and one of them was from you blaming all Palestinians for what happened on Oct 7th and lumping them in with "most of them want to kill jews" for a place with over 2 million people.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by pylon

I am just asking questions.

I am about 5 months shy of my 50th orbit around the sun, and I am seeing language and actions towards Jewish and Western culture/people that I thought were long buried in the past. It doesn't take more than a few minutes of searching social media to find straight out, open antisemitism on North American streets. People accosting born and raised North American Jewish students, civilians and seniors that have absolutely nothing to do with anything happening in Israel. In Michigan chants of death to America/Death to Israel in the open, in the streets...

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opini...t/73288232007/

It won't take much more of this to trigger a culture war in our own backyard that will get very ugly, very fast.

What do you suppose is fueling this hatred?

[Flacker]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

What do you suppose is fueling this hatred?

A lot of it is the human reaction to need to pick a side. There are no winners in the Middle East. There are many in this thread that have their minds made up, and seem incapable of seeing the plight of the other side. Add to that people consuming media that is slanted at best, or an outright echo chamber in the worst examples.

I've know enough of the history of the region to know there is no easy solution. This will take generations to solve. Both sides treating each other as humans is the minimum starting point, we certainly aren't there yet.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Flacker

A lot of it is the human reaction to need to pick a side. There are no winners in the Middle East. There are many in this thread that have their minds made up, and seem incapable of seeing the plight of the other side. Add to that people consuming media that is slanted at best, or an outright echo chamber in the worst examples.

I've know enough of the history of the region to know there is no easy solution. This will take generations to solve. Both sides treating each other as humans is the minimum starting point, we certainly aren't there yet.

That's really the crux of it, and both sides are moving farther and farther from that.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

Which is all awful.

You don't even have to leave this thread to see the anti Muslim and anti Palestinian vitriol. Actually just the last few pages and one of them was from you blaming all Palestinians for what happened on Oct 7th and lumping them in with "most of them want to kill jews" for a place with over 2 million people.

You are a fool if you believe there are not massive antisemitic undertones in many of these protests. And to deny someone, who has been critical of Israel in this thread, their own experience with antisemitism is pretty gross. Do you believe Pylon is lying? But I mean it makes sense for someone like you who cheered for Iran to attack Israel and has made it known they hate all Zionists. Not exactly a pro-peace message you are propagating.

So if 90% of Jews agree with zionism in one form or another, does that mean you hate 90% of Jews? You have made it clear you hate all Zionists. I think you have an extremely low understanding of Jews and Jewish culture and incredibly ignorant. You can in fact be a Zionist and want a ceasefire. You can be a Zionist and want a peaceful 2 state solution. There are in fact various forms of Zionism and in reality it is silly to use this word anyways because Israel already exists and you can just say Likud supporters or members of the Israeli far right, but you seemed hell pressed on stating you just hate Zionists in general. It’s pretty obvious to most Jews that the hijacking of this word into a slur is just another way to say Jew. You’ve done is so many times in this thread ive lost count. Once you start reading “Jews” in replace of “Zionist” the antisemitism really starts to show itself. Like the fact you just straight up dismissed Pylon’s experience with antisemitism while clearly inferring you don’t believe it happened is so crazy to me.

Multiple pages back you stated Jews from New York are moving into the West Bank and kicking out Palestinians. Jews from North America represent less 2% of Israeli immigrants last year and a small minority over the last decade. How is what you said not an antisemitic claim when 98% of Jews immigrating into Israel are not from New York, the US, or Canada. It’s this type of rhetoric that leads to the several bomb threats New York synagogues experienced this past week. There is not a mass immigration movement of Jews from anywhere in North America into the West Bank, and while there may be settler organization groups who are attempting to purchase and sell land in the West Bank, 99.9% of North American and New York Jews are not moving and kicking out Palestinians like you have claimed multiple times.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Beninho

You are a fool if you believe there are not massive antisemitic undertones in many of these protests. And to deny someone, who has been critical of Israel in this thread, their own experience with antisemitism is pretty gross. Do you believe Pylon is lying? But I mean it makes sense for someone like you who cheered for Iran to attack Israel and has made it known they hate all Zionists. Not exactly a pro-peace message you are propagating.

So if 90% of Jews agree with zionism in one form or another, does that mean you hate 90% of Jews? I think you have an extremely low understanding of Jews and Jewish culture and incredibly ignorant. You can in fact be a Zionist and want a ceasefire. That is because there are various forms of Zionism but you seemed hell pressed on stating you just hate Zionists in general. It’s pretty obvious to most Jews that the hijacking of this word into a slur is just another way to say Jew. You’ve done is so many times in this thread ive lost count. Once you start reading “Jews” in replace of “Zionist” the antisemitism really starts to show itself. Like the fact you just straight up dismissed Pylon’s experience with antisemitism while clearly inferring you don’t believe it happened is so crazy to me.

Multiple pages back you stated Jews from New York are moving into the West Bank and kicking out Palestinians. Jews from North America represent less 2% of Israeli immigrants last year and a small minority over the last decade. How is what you said not an antisemitic claim when 98% of Jews immigrating into Israel are not from New York, the US, or Canada. It’s this type of rhetoric that leads to the several bomb threats New York synagogues experienced this past week.

If 90% of jews are zionists, as you claim (which i doubt), then 90% of jews are wrong. You can be a jew that isn't a zionist. You can be a zionist that isn't a jew. Hell, you can even be a Zionist anti-semite.

Nothing controversial about that.

[BowRiverBruinsRule]

Originally Posted by Skootenbeeten

Hey how are those hostages doing? Are those brave freedom fighters treating them well or still raping?



Whatever happened to that great chant you guys had? "From the something to the something..." How did it go? Oh it was deemed to be genocidal, oh that's a bad look. xD

You are truly a ######.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by _Q_

If 90% of jews are zionists, as you claim (which i doubt), then 90% of jews are wrong.

I am not sure you know what zionism is. The word has been hijacked by antisemites and flipped over into some hateful term.

Why don't you help us understand what you believe the word to mean.

[Fl4me5]

Originally Posted by _Q_

If 90% of jews are zionists, as you claim (which i doubt), then 90% of jews are wrong. You can be a jew that isn't a zionist. You can be a zionist that isn't a jew. Hell, you can even be a Zionist anti-semite.

Nothing controversial about that.

Am I understanding correctly? Nothing controversial about not believing a group of people have a right to live in their own country?

Would you feel the same if Israel ended up being established in Madagascar, Guyana, or New York? You know, the other locations that were considered?

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Fl4me5

Am I understanding correctly? Nothing controversial about not believing a group of people have a right to live in their own country?

Would you feel the same if Israel ended up being established in Madagascar, Guyana, or New York? You know, the other locations that were considered?

Or what about the dozen plus other countries created when Israel was created? They always seem to be ignored by the 'anti-Zionists'.

Numerous countries were created as a result of the fall of the Ottoman empire (which was true colonialism). That included Israel and much of the middle east.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

I am not sure you know what zionism is. The word has been hijacked by antisemites and flipped over into some hateful term.

Why don't you help us understand what you believe the word to mean.

It's the idea that the Jewish people are a distinct ethnic group that are direct descendants of the biblical Jews. It was/is a national revival movement that was a reaction to 19th century European antisemitism. It sought to create a homeland for the Jewish people in Palestine. After israel was established, it sought to maintain israel as the Jewish state.

It is also a form of ethno-nationalism that isn't really how we view nation states anymore.

Originally Posted by Fl4me5

Am I understanding correctly? Nothing controversial about not believing a group of people have a right to live in their own country?

Would you feel the same if Israel ended up being established in Madagascar, Guyana, or New York? You know, the other locations that were considered?

No I don't believe an ethnostate should have been established anywhere else either.

[Fl4me5]

Originally Posted by _Q_

No I don't believe an ethnostate should have been established anywhere else either.

So do you believe that Palestinians should recover all of the land of Israel? Because that would, based on regional history, result in an ethnostate.