Sutter is the problem

[Kipper_3434]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

It does tell a story does it not? He went from 1.44 ppg in the regular season to 0.5 ppg in the playoffs last year. That probably rang some alarm bells for Bill Zito who instead of re-signing this guy, shocked the hockey world by trading him with a 1st and Weegar.

I mean, the Florida GM of all people would know him best right? It's certainly what I noticed when I watched a few of his games after the acquisition. He struggled to make plays in tight quarters, didn't check well, his movement around the ice was uninspired. But then you'd see a heck of a play out of the blue that resulted in a no look, spinning highlight reel assist and you'd think, ok, that's the type of magic he has in him.

But again, for Huberdeau, it's very situational. He's not the same type of playmaker Gaudreau is who use to skate around and create/force openings. Huberdeau almost has to wait and then pounce when he sees the opening and I think therein lies the problem. In the playoffs, there aren't a lot of openings, no time or space, everything is congested and his spin passes that use to work end up on the stick of the opposition instead. At least, that's my "off the top of my head" theory.

The other part of that is that a player like Huberdeau should be played with players who create space through speed and driving the net. If I'm the gm I'm bringing in 2 new players to play with our 10.5m player. Wouldn't be surprised to see another swap with Florida, Duclair would probably very cheap and if Treliving is gone we could bring back BENZO as well. Zad and Dube should be close to fair value. I dunno, I just feel like this team has to do something to get Huberdeau going.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by zamler

Tre didn't notice this?

It seems certain that he did. But Chucky wanted out and none of the other offers for him looked appealing. Tre did the best he could with the cards he was dealt. Ownership was not going to let him trade Chucky for futures and put the team into a rebuild.

[Enoch Root]

Bennett and Duclair had 3 points each. It's pretty easy and pretty lazy to make a judgement on a short playoff stance. Matchups matter, for one thing. And lines get hot and cold.

Saying Zito dumped Huberdeau, after an unproductive 10 playoff games, is a stretch, not to mention hindsight bias.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Bennett and Duclair had 3 points each. It's pretty easy and pretty lazy to make a judgement on a short playoff stance. Matchups matter, for one thing. And lines get hot and cold.

Saying Zito dumped Huberdeau, after an unproductive 10 playoff games, is a stretch, not to mention hindsight bias.

The year before Huberdeau had 1.67 PPG in the playoffs which would be a 137 point pace over 82 games. Maybe Zito was thinking about that? Who knows.

[Sainters7]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

So we want to be the Oilers? McDavid goes out gets his 150 and Leon gets his 120 and they score 60 goals each but play the game the wrong way.



Their going to make the playoffs and maybe they win come playoffs, but I doubt they will win it all because their team is still being coached and the team plays a game that is more about padding stats then winning games, especially winning come playoff time.

Yeah, I know they made the conference final last year, but outside of the BoA series, it seemed like yet another struggle for them: McDavid needed to go into God mode at a level we hadn't seen yet just to pull them out of the fire down 3-2 in the series to the worst team in the playoffs. Then they get swept by Colorado.

I wouldn't be shocked at all to see them struggle yet again this postseason and get bounced early. They just always get up for us, and you're not gonna get the Flames in the playoffs every year...

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Kipper_3434

The other part of that is that a player like Huberdeau should be played with players who create space through speed and driving the net. If I'm the gm I'm bringing in 2 new players to play with our 10.5m player. Wouldn't be surprised to see another swap with Florida, Duclair would probably very cheap and if Treliving is gone we could bring back BENZO as well. Zad and Dube should be close to fair value. I dunno, I just feel like this team has to do something to get Huberdeau going.

Isn’t this the problem though? This team doesn’t have that “guy” who was the Tkachuk to Gaudreau. I think a lot of Johnny’s prior issues were solved when he started playing with someone as talented as Tkachuk. The opposition suddenly couldn’t just hone in and double team just one guy because Tkachuk was as big of a threat on the opposite side of the ice.

So I think Huberdeau’s performance could see a big bump up if he found himself a comparable talent who could hide his flaws and reinforce his strengths. But therein lies the rub, Huberdeau and Weegar’s new contracts kick in next year, so finding the “guy” could become an even more arduous task.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Isn’t this the problem though? This team doesn’t have that “guy” who was the Tkachuk to Gaudreau. I think a lot of Johnny’s prior issues were solved when he started playing with someone as talented as Tkachuk. The opposition suddenly couldn’t just hone in and double team just one guy because Tkachuk was as big of a threat on the opposite side of the ice.

So I think Huberdeau’s performance could see a big bump up if he found himself a comparable talent who could hide his flaws and reinforce his strengths. But therein lies the rub, Huberdeau and Weegar’s new contracts kick in next year, so finding the “guy” could become an even more arduous task.

Prior to last year, a lot of the same complaints were made about Gaudreau as we now hear about Huberdeau. "Complementary player". "Can't find space any more".

I guess my question is - wouldn't Lindholm and Toffoli create some space for Huberdeau? Back when they tried Huberdeau-Lindholm, Lindy was struggling pretty hard. Lindy is a 2-way digger who can shoot (and in a couple shifts with Huberdeau lately looked OK). Toffoli is a natural RW who finds seams and has a good shot.

[FlamesAddiction]

Lindholm and Kadri both looked better when they weren't playing with Huberdeau. At some point, people have to start realizing that this isn't on his linemates or the coach.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Lindholm and Kadri both looked better when they weren't playing with Huberdeau. At some point, people have to start realizing that this isn't on his linemates or the coach.

Add Toffoli too. This team would be just fine if 2 players played up to par.

Huberdeau
Markstrom

Markstrom is showing signs of turning it around.

Huberdeau needs to pick it up, but I will put some blame on Sutter until I see the line, I called for at the start of the year.

Huberdeau - Lindholm - Dube

Even though this line hasn't played together yet you still have to look at Huberdeau as being a player good enough to carry players lessor than he is.

Guys who carry players typically aren't 15 points behind the players they carry.

Backlund has as many points as Huberdeau. Dube has 6 less. Blaming Sutter for Huberdeau's linemates when his linemates are out producing him doesn't make any sense.

Auston Matthews numbers are down this year. He and Marner are playing less togther this year than last. His numbers have dipped but it's not like Bunting is out producing him.

Backlund tied with Huberdeau is points would be something nobody would have predicted. He's been awful and needs to step up

[GioforPM]

Lindholm didn't look good with Huberdeau at the beginning of the year when Lindholm himself wasn't playing very well.

As for Kadri, no, he didn't playe better without Huberdeau. Started with Mangiapane and Dube and had 12 goals for that line in 228 minutes. Had the same number of goals in combo with Lucic and Huberdeau in only 185 minutes. And had 4 less goals against.

https://frozenpool.dobbersports.com/players/nazem-kadri

[Heavy Jack]

Backlund has outplayed Kads at centre all year imo and should be considered the 2nd line centre atm. With that said I think we should be loading up the top 6 as much as possible down the stretch if the goal is to sneak in. Push Huby to the top line left wing and slot accordingly

Huberdeau - Lindholm - Toffoli
Kadri - Backlund - Pelletier
Mangiapane - Dube - Coleman
Ritchie - Lewis - Duehr
Ruzicka, Lucic

Maybe that’s not the right move but I think it’s worth a look.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Heavy Jack

Backlund has outplayed Kads at centre all year imo and should be considered the 2nd line centre atm. With that said I think we should be loading up the top 6 as much as possible down the stretch if the goal is to sneak in. Push Huby to the top line left wing and slot accordingly

Huberdeau - Lindholm - Toffoli
Kadri - Backlund - Pelletier
Mangiapane - Dube - Coleman
Ritchie - Lewis - Duehr
Ruzicka, Lucic

Maybe that’s not the right move but I think it’s worth a look.

I can't disagree that they need to shorten that bench. Not sure Pelletier should displace Coleman. Coleman's been really really good with backlund and Pelletier has cooled off. He could well mesh with Mangiapane and Dube though. But maybe that line would be vulnerable defensively.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

How many more coaches is gonna take? We know Tre probably can't hire another coach right now, but what if the players don't like the next coach. Hartley, Brent, Peters GG and Ward. Now we have a problem with Surtter. What's the common denominator the players aren't playing for the coach. Not sure why use Tkachuk as an example when he himself wasn’t getting along with the team.

Backlund is the only player who has played full time for more than five seasons, so unless you’re blaming him then it’s hard to talk about common denominators across all those coaches.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by edslunch

Backlund is the only player who has played full time for more than five seasons, so unless you’re blaming him then it’s hard to talk about common denominators across all those coaches.

Backs may be the longest serving player but he doesn't make the up the whole team. Backs has arguably been the most consistent.

You don't think consistency over the past few years is a common denominator? Sure the players are interchangeable and some of them are no longer here. We just have to look at the comments about coaching over the last few years to see how difficult it has been to bring in a coach to motivate the players.. Sutter was brought in to change the culture and to create a hard working team. There is no guarantee that bringing in another coach is going to motivate this group, "even if Backs is the the only one left." The Flames, the culture, the team identity, those are all common denominators across the board,; But the one that stands out the most is inconsistency. We never seem to have a group of players that play for the coach long enough to have any meaningful playoff success.

Changing the coach is easy, but if one group to the next won't play for the coaches what should we do? I'm not sure if we have a lot of great coaching options.

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Isn’t this the problem though? This team doesn’t have that “guy” who was the Tkachuk to Gaudreau. I think a lot of Johnny’s prior issues were solved when he started playing with someone as talented as Tkachuk. The opposition suddenly couldn’t just hone in and double team just one guy because Tkachuk was as big of a threat on the opposite side of the ice.

So I think Huberdeau’s performance could see a big bump up if he found himself a comparable talent who could hide his flaws and reinforce his strengths. But therein lies the rub, Huberdeau and Weegar’s new contracts kick in next year, so finding the “guy” could become an even more arduous task.

The Flames can’t afford that guy unfortunately. Huberdeau needs to start earning his salary. He’s played with almost everyone on the roster.

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I can't disagree that they need to shorten that bench. Not sure Pelletier should displace Coleman. Coleman's been really really good with backlund and Pelletier has cooled off. He could well mesh with Mangiapane and Dube though. But maybe that line would be vulnerable defensively.

I agree on shortening the bench. It’s something they never seem to do.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Goriders

I agree on shortening the bench. It’s something they never seem to do.

I just mean for the end of the season. Sutter kind of did the opposite with his lines last game - he spread the better players out.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Prior to last year, a lot of the same complaints were made about Gaudreau as we now hear about Huberdeau. "Complementary player". "Can't find space any more".

I guess my question is - wouldn't Lindholm and Toffoli create some space for Huberdeau? Back when they tried Huberdeau-Lindholm, Lindy was struggling pretty hard. Lindy is a 2-way digger who can shoot (and in a couple shifts with Huberdeau lately looked OK). Toffoli is a natural RW who finds seams and has a good shot.

Yeah it’s a very generic complaint that could be said for a lot of struggling playmakers. I never really saw it that way though, I always looked at Gaudreau an elite driver with very specific flaws especially along the half wall in his own end. So I think it was more so about getting opportunities on the rush itself due to his line’s propensity to be hemmed in their own zone. I think Tkachuk helped fix that issue though and once that trio was finally formed, the entire line now had elite ability to check, rush and cycle which made them incredibly dangerous no matter what zone they started in.

As for Huberdeau-Lindholm-Toffoli, I don’t know to think with these guys. I know I didn’t like them at all together in October or December. I didn’t think they looked cohesive or dangerous on a shift by shift basis. Maybe things could change, who knows. But personally, I’m not sure their play styles match. I think Huberdeau is at his best when he can find the trailer or guys streaking towards the net whereas Lindholm and Toffoli are at their best checking for their chances.

Also, how often did we see Lindholm set up camp in the slot and unleash his one timer for a goal last season? We saw it quite often. But how often have we seen Huberdeau creating havoc behind the net and finding an open man in the slot this season? I honestly don’t recall many.

So for me, I’m not sure that line will ever necessarily fit. I honestly think Huberdeau would be a better fit with Backlund who can really push the pace in transition and distribute the puck to his to his wingers. But then you run into the problem of finishing which Backlund doesn’t excel at and plus, that Mangiapane-Backlund-Coleman line is hard to split because they’re so good. So yeah, It seems difficult trying to find the right fit which probably explains why this season has unfolded the way it has.

[GioforPM]

^^ Lindholm benefitted a lot from Tkachuk loving being behind the net all right. I actually think Huberdeau would be good from behind the net but it’s not where he’s used to going as far as I can see.

I agree Backlund is a guy who loves to carry and dish to wingers. And I’m not as leery as you about removing Mangiapane from that line. I think any decent winger with Backlund and Coleman put up similar fancy stats, and Mangiapane needs to find the net with another combo. He’s a fairly miserable player so maybe he’d like Kadri as a centre.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Has anybody mentioned the Flames’ OT record and Sutter’s response to it?

Basically last year they were something like 4-9 in OT, and this year are something like 4-11

Apparently none of the guys who watch practices can recall having seen them practice 3 on 3. When asked about it, Sutter said something along the lines of ‘To be honest, if you execute the game plan, you shouldn’t get to OT’

That is just flat out stupid.

Every team has a game plan, and over 20 percent of games go to OT. There is no excuse to be unprepared for it