Flames - how to cure the rot for 2019/20

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I doubt they move Neal without at least giving him 20 games or so to see if he can regain the form. If he can earn a better lineup spot in training camp, I could see him doing so. He strikes me as a guy who needs more than 3rd line minutes to get in gear. Some guys need ice time for their style to work (Tkachuk and Gaudreau are that type IMO). Some work better with the minutes cut down (say, Mangiapane or Ryan, or back in the day, Phaneuf).

But of course, you cannot just give him 20 games and see if he is unsuccessful, then buy him out. You’ll be stuck with him for another year, and he’s that much further from having success. He’ll be even more difficult to move at that stage.


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[jayswin]

Originally Posted by FiveSeven

If they can trade neal without sending out one of our good prospects, sure, do it. Unlikely though.

Otherwise I would give Neal another chance. I personally think he can easily recapture his 20 goal scoring prowess. If he does, great! If not then we can talk about buyouts. I don't think owners would want to cut ties to their investment without seeing if it can turn itself around.

Even if he can just pot 15-17 we'll at least get like 75% value on his contract instead of next to zero. I think he can do it.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

But of course, you cannot just give him 20 games and see if he is unsuccessful, then buy him out. You’ll be stuck with him for another year, and he’s that much further from having success. He’ll be even more difficult to move at that stage.


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I don't see a buyout or a trade this off season. While he would be more difficult to move, the choice would be clearer. I think his chances of rebounding are higher than doing well off a trade in any event.

[activeStick]

I like that Neal owned his horrible season and I'm leaning towards him having a strong year next season. Playing in back to back finals has to have an effect on any player's body, but especially on a guy on the other side of 30 like Neal. A full summer of rest and training, instead of pushing it out to just before training camp, coupled with a motivated Neal should turn out well for him and the Flames.

[Husky]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Even if he can just pot 15-17 we'll at least get like 75% value on his contract instead of next to zero. I think he can do it.

If Neal isn't going to score 25+ goals and only 15-20 he needs to start playing with an edge and contribute a physical brand of hockey to offset the offense.

[JTech780]

I think we need to figure out why an entire team pulled a no show for 5 playoff games. That is more concerning than any kind of roster construction. If it was a couple of players who didn't bring their intensity level up, then I would look at roster construction, but since it was the whole team, there is something bigger at play.

Was it that they don't have the experience required, is that Peters was going I to his first playoffs as a head coach or was it that they clinched too early and didn't have to play any meaningful games for a month while Colorado had to play at a playoff level for month just to get into the playoffs.

When I look back Colorado was playing at playoff level intensity and we were still playing regular season hockey.

I think you make some tweaks to the team, but I would give this core and coaching staff another year to figure it out before I make sweeping changes.

[CliffFletcher]

I'm not confident Neal will be better once he's had an offseason to rest. His shot was as big of a problem as his skating, and I don't see how that can be attributed to fatigue.

But I guess there's not much else we can do but wait and see.

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by JTech780

I think we need to figure out why an entire team pulled a no show for 5 playoff games. That is more concerning than any kind of roster construction. If it was a couple of players who didn't bring their intensity level up, then I would look at roster construction, but since it was the whole team, there is something bigger at play.

Was it that they don't have the experience required, is that Peters was going I to his first playoffs as a head coach or was it that they clinched too early and didn't have to play any meaningful games for a month while Colorado had to play at a playoff level for month just to get into the playoffs.

When I look back Colorado was playing at playoff level intensity and we were still playing regular season hockey.

I think you make some tweaks to the team, but I would give this core and coaching staff another year to figure it out before I make sweeping changes.

It wasn't the whole team though. Up front it was Lindholm, flashes of Johnny, Backlund, flashes of Frolik, Bennett and the fourth line, all who played hard enough to win.

The defense was mostly young and suffering from a lack of backchecking from any of the forward core not mentioned above.

Smith played great.

Any of the forward core not named above should be considered expendable, and there are some really good pieces there, just perhaps not for this team. I would make an allowance for Tkachuk, who looked like the definition of a player in his first playoff game. You can grow out of that.

[JTech780]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

It wasn't the whole team though. Up front it was Lindholm, flashes of Johnny, Backlund, flashes of Frolik, Bennett and the fourth line, all who played hard enough to win.

The defense was mostly young and suffering from a lack of backchecking from any of the forward core not mentioned above.

Smith played great.

Any of the forward core not named above should be considered expendable, and there are some really good pieces there, just perhaps not for this team. I would make an allowance for Tkachuk, who looked like the definition of a player in his first playoff game. You can grow out of that.

I would disagree, I think the forwards that you listed all threw a few more hits than they normally would have, but other than that they didn't play anywhere near playoff level hockey. Bennett might be the exception, and Gaudreau in game 5.

On defense, if we want to give a pass to the young guys, I get that, but Giordano, Brodie and to a lesser extent Hamonic were no where to be found.

Smith played great, I will agree with that.

So basically Smith and Bennett were the only players who were ready to take their games to required level.

I think the team as a whole was just lulled into a false sense of security and weren't ready to perform.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by activeStick

I like that Neal owned his horrible season and I'm leaning towards him having a strong year next season.

I think I missed where he "owned" anything. Could be I missed those comments. I did see that he expects to be a top 6 forward. Did he "own" all the goals against where he was just coasting around?

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by troutman

I think I missed where he "owned" anything. Could be I missed those comments. I did see that he expects to be a top 6 forward. Did he "own" all the goals against where he was just coasting around?

Well he would never own that.

But he owned that his responsibility is to also score goals, to cancel out the awful chances he gives up. So... yay?

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by JTech780

I would disagree, I think the forwards that you listed all threw a few more hits than they normally would have, but other than that they didn't play anywhere near playoff level hockey. Bennett might be the exception, and Gaudreau in game 5.

On defense, if we want to give a pass to the young guys, I get that, but Giordano, Brodie and to a lesser extent Hamonic were no where to be found.

Smith played great, I will agree with that.

So basically Smith and Bennett were the only players who were ready to take their games to required level.

I think the team as a whole was just lulled into a false sense of security and weren't ready to perform.

BT's interview, "through NHL.com app", he basically says the same thing. Some players that normally play well, didn't and some players raised their level of game. He didn't feel we played our best and had some concern the team didn't leave everything on the ice.

I agree with your comment, thinking that we didn't peak, maybe because regular season expectations had already been met?; So for whatever reason "some players" were not prepared, or ready to make sacrifices to do whatever took to win. No sense of urgency, no shot blocking, no push back.

Was it coach, players, or expectations? I think Peters would do well to chat up with some coaches with previous playoff experience to see what he needs to do, while BT addresses's roster issues. I thought it was admirable that they gave Neal so much rope, however if they wanted to motivate him it would have been better to bench him sooner and let someone else learn and earn his spot.

[Erick Estrada]

It's one thing for perennial playoff teams to be able to coast through the last few weeks of the season and then throttle up for the playoffs but this was a new experience for the Flames to be playing games down the stretch that didn't matter other than in the standings and it appears they just couldn't flip the switch to match the intensity of the Avalanche. It certainly is something you can chalk up as part of the learning process but a lot of the players on this roster have been around for the last 3 playoff series where the team has gone 2-12 over 14 games so there are some warning flags. I'm not so sure you can dismiss just how poor players like Backlund, Tkachuk (probably gets a bit more slack because of his age), and Gaudreau in particular have been in the last three playoff series the team has played in. Treliving has to find out what the problem is with these players or if maybe they are the problem in the playoffs and not the solution.

[midniteowl]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

BT's interview, "through NHL.com app", he basically says the same thing. Some players that normally play well, didn't and some players raised their level of game. He didn't feel we played our best and had some concern the team didn't leave everything on the ice.

I agree with your comment, thinking that we didn't peak, maybe because regular season expectations had already been met?; So for whatever reason "some players" were not prepared, or ready to make sacrifices to do whatever took to win. No sense of urgency, no shot blocking, no push back.

Was it coach, players, or expectations? I think Peters would do well to chat up with some coaches with previous playoff experience to see what he needs to do, while BT addresses's roster issues. I thought it was admirable that they gave Neal so much rope, however if they wanted to motivate him it would have been better to bench him sooner and let someone else learn and earn his spot.

Totally agree!! No urgency was exactly what I saw, in a lot of games after the All Star break, you can see it in power play. They just passed the puck around or do the nonchalant flip pass that end up on their opponents' sticks for a shorty. I remember I almost lost my voice for yelling at the TV.


Peters needs to give a friendly ring to Mr. D Sutter on how he can bring his players intensity up close to the playoff. Hindsight, may be they should have rested all those players once they clinched the 1st in the Conference. Those players looked like they are too rested and into stale territory.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

It's one thing for perennial playoff teams to be able to coast through the last few weeks of the season and then throttle up for the playoffs but this was a new experience for the Flames to be playing games down the stretch that didn't matter other than in the standings and it appears they just couldn't flip the switch to match the intensity of the Avalanche. It certainly is something you can chalk up as part of the learning process but a lot of the players on this roster have been around for the last 3 playoff series where the team has gone 2-12 over 14 games so there are some warning flags. I'm not so sure you can dismiss just how poor players like Backlund, Tkachuk (probably gets a bit more slack because of his age), and Gaudreau in particular have been in the last three playoff series the team has played in. Treliving has to find out what the problem is with these players or if maybe they are the problem in the playoffs and not the solution.

Peters said he'd approach the end of the season way different next time, FIW.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Peters said he'd approach the end of the season way different next time, FIW.

I know he did, and personally don’t think that’s the answer. In fact, I think you want your guys to be as healthy as possible anticipating a long run. So would in fact expect the same.

I will refer again to Backlund’s play on the Raantanen one timer. Didn’t take the pass, or the man, or block the shot. Was in the proximity of where he needed to be, but just not reading the play, taking away time and space, competing for that puck. Just not focused.

The Avs clearly were anticipating Flames plays and picking picks off almost at will. Under pressure, you sink to the level of your preparation and the Flames were outplayed.

Every hockey player says they take it one game at a time. The skate is wiped clean after every game, and the coaching staff has to make any required adjustments to the game plan, motivate the boys, focus them, do whatever it takes.

If Peters is going to be looking at his coaching, he needs to fix what happened in playoff games 2-5, not regular season games 78-82.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I know he did, and personally don’t think that’s the answer. In fact, I think you want your guys to be as healthy as possible anticipating a long run. So would in fact expect the same.

I'm sure there's a lot more to mental preparation than just how much intensity you want from the players in the last regular season games. It's hard to know what exactly Peters means. Did they turn the playoffs into a too big of a deal mentally? Did they focus on the wrong things? Did building confidence lead to a bubble of overconfidence, which flattened the team once the bubble burst?

Mental preparation can be very tricky and there's a lot of nuance to what you can do. It's also something we as fans don't really know much anything about. We don't know what the atmosphere was like before the series started in the dressing room and how much of that was what the coaches intended. All we really know is that it went bad.

If Peters is going to be looking at his coaching, he needs to fix what happened in playoff games 2-5, not regular season games 78-82.

I believe the vast majority of preparing for the playoffs happens during the regular season, especially if you have your playoff spot secured early. For that reason I think the biggest mistakes were originally made during the regular season.

I definitely agree that not being able to fix what had already gone wrong once the series started going downhill is also something to look at, and clearly Peters's coaching was disappointing there. Fixing his playoff coaching and fixing what they did during the regular season aren't mutually exclusive though.

I'm sure Peters himself isn't happy about his playoff coaching, and isn't going to ignore that part. I think it showed that this was the first time for him as a head coach in that situation.

Let's hope he had a good learning experience.

[shadowlord]

I wonder if Peters should have experimented more with different line forward combinations during the regular season to build some chemistry if things faltered.

During last off-season, one of the strengths we fans were savouring was the team's depth and ability to move players like Lindholm, Neal, Czarnik, Frolik, Bennett up and down the roster if certain combos struggled.

However, after Lindholm grabbed 1st RW, we ended up not really moving things around that much. So once Colorado homed in on our style, any switched up the lines didn't have much gel.

I'm not saying we should completely discard the Gaudreau-Monahan-Lindholm line, but maybe every 3rd or 4th game, try some different lines for one game or two, and then go back to what works afterwards.

Then when playoffs roll around, we can give a different look to some lines using players that are somewhat familiar with one another. Sometimes, different linemates will force our players into a different style, and that might be enough to throw-off Colorado's plans.

What I saw in games 3, 4, 5 of our series this year was unfortunately reminiscent of GG's style: Stubbornly stay the course hoping the players would get out of their dry-spell, when it was clear that the Bednar had found the weaknesses of our current system, and Peters only made minimal changes to counter it.

[cannon7]

Since Monahan and Neal are healthy, perhaps they can hire a skating coach and work on their foot speed this summer? Or do they really think they'll skate on their shots alone?

Hey Monahan, wanna see your future?

[Monahammer]

Monahan did not play well this playoffs, but in other playoffs hes been our best player. Not ready to declare him lazy- but disappointed in the way he finished the season.

I do agree that skating and toughness are his training priorities this year. Send him and Bennett both to that Gary Roberts supercamp (is that still a thing?) Daily doubles for Monahan with a personal power skating coach. Come back and prove to us you are captain material like we all thought before the end of this season.

Calls to trade him are way too soon, but he has to put in the work to make it to the next level this season.