Of course, these people didn't watch the events as closely as President Comacho. These were folks right in the middle of everything, so you must take their accounts with a grain of salt. They wouldn't have the same view from where BLOTUS was sitting.
Another aspect is that their memorials that do exist aren't bull#### aggrandizement. they are visceral, horrific, emotionally stirring memorials incorporating historical artifacts designed to encourage reflection. Not statues of goebbels looking regal on horseback.
Agreed completely. There was also significant memorials to the VICTIMS. Dont think I'll forget the Murdered Jewish Memorial or the Berlin Wall Memorial.
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, there was a big line of white supremacists, the leader wearing some kind of yellow spiked helmet, and as they tromped toward the rally, these lovely older women standing beside us wearing sky blue T-shirts that said “Quaker” kind of trotted alongside them gently, holding signs that said “Love.” Alt-left for sure. I was armed with my iPhone and my dog’s leash. Luke was armed with his acne and hormones.
I admit, I chuckled at "armed with his acne and hormones."
Often the argument for preserving Confederate statues and allowing Confederate flags is that we should not forget our history. In Germany, Nazi buildings are extremely hard to come by — nearly all have been destroyed. Yet Germany certainly has not forgotten anything: There's just a recognition that remembering and memorializing are two different things.
No Robert E Lee was not hitler, I think a better example to stick with the German theme would be Heinrich Himmler, would you argue for a statue of him to be kept? Any memorial site for troops in Germany are very clear in their message that they served their country valiantly, but that the what they were fighting for was wrong.
I really don't think he's comparable to Himmler either but whatever.
I'm also not in "favor" of keeping the statue, apparently the city of Charlottesville voted it be removed and that's what should happen. The discussion of how to handle these sites is what's more interesting to me and I've enjoyed reading people's points of view. In a lot of cases it's a lot more interesting than the 2015 debate in the States about whether the Confederate flag should be flown from public buildings like it was in South Carolina, which should absolutely be a hard-no.
I feel the need to point out that every Confederate officer, Lee included, chose to leave their 'country' to serve in the Confederate army, many southern officers chose not to serve the confederacy but either stayed out of the war intirely or served in the United States Army.
In this the likes of Lee and Jackson were actually more culpable then German officers, Rommel or Manstien had no choice, both legally, it was jail and potential death to refuse, and because, regardless of the fact Hitler started the war, their country was still being attacked.
Last edited by afc wimbledon; 08-16-2017 at 05:42 PM.
I think the lesson is the word "country" means different things to different people throughout time. Lee for example made it very clear that his loyalties were to Virginia first and foremost during a time when most people identified more with their state.
Last edited by DiracSpike; 08-16-2017 at 05:54 PM.
I really don't think he's comparable to Himmler either but whatever.
I'm also not in "favor" of keeping the statue, apparently the city of Charlottesville voted it be removed and that's what should happen. The discussion of how to handle these sites is what's more interesting to me and I've enjoyed reading people's points of view. In a lot of cases it's a lot more interesting than the 2015 debate in the States about whether the Confederate flag should be flown from public buildings like it was in South Carolina, which should absolutely be a hard-no.
It's the same debate. You don't need to have the flags or statues to remember the history. Memorials that don't honour people who fought to keep slavery alive aren't complicated to make. The problem is there is a large portion of the population that idolize these historic figures and promote what they did to gain support for pushing an agenda of bigotry, racism and hatred.
I think the lesson is the word "country" means different things to different people throughout time. Lee for example made it very clear that his loyalties were to Virginia first and foremost during a time when most people identified more with their state.
Regardless he had a choice to fight for slavery or not, he didn't have to serve, nor was his state being threatened by an external threat.
It's the same debate. You don't need to have the flags or statues to remember the history. Memorials that don't honour people who fought to keep slavery alive aren't complicated to make. The problem is there is a large portion of the population that idolize these historic figures and promote what they did to gain support for pushing an agenda of bigotry, racism and hatred.
It's different though because people are more complicated than symbols. There's nothing ambiguous about the Confederate battle flag and what it stood for.
There's at least a reason the legacy of Lee is slightly more mixed, there'd be a lot less controversey if this was a statue of Jefferson Davis or Nathan Bedford Forrest.
It's different though because people are more complicated than symbols. There's nothing ambiguous about the Confederate battle flag and what it stood for.
There's at least a reason the legacy of Lee is slightly more mixed, there'd be a lot less controversey if this was a statue of Jefferson Davis or Nathan Bedford Forrest.
Did he fight to maintain slavery? Do you think that is a good thing or a bad thing? Do you believe that there is anything to be gained from having a statue of this individual in a public area?
Amber Ruffin is a very talented writer for Seth Meyers. Last night she did a different kind of sketch:
This is such a powerful segment. I know how I feel after 6+ months of the Trump presidency. The daily missteps, the worry that he'll start a nuclear war, the worry that the GOP is going to obliterate my ability to affordably obtain healthcare, my continued access to birth control and abortion access if needed, etc.
And I'm a privileged middle class white woman.
I cannot imagine the level of exhaustion in black communities. This is nothing new for them. This is decades, centuries that this has happened. The concept of having a "safe" place--basically the need to take care of yourself sometimes, among all the badness, is just really poignant.
Last edited by wittynickname; 08-16-2017 at 08:30 PM.
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The whole Daily Stormer drama is a rather interesting side show to what's going on. Go Daddy, Google and Cloudflare have all kicked the site off their services, essentially banning it from the internet. The actions raise interesting questions about the ability of private companies to control the internet - topical given the FCC's current efforts to undermine net neutrality - and about the Streisand Effect having a negative consequence as the site's profile is now dramatically higher than it once was. It will pull in new readers and supporters whenever it finds a new home. Even Cloudflare's CEO is concerned about his own decision to punt the site.
They had, but that was before Cloudflare dropped them, which in turn allowed Daily Stormer to get DDOSed right off the net. So far as I am aware, it's still down.
Twitter, Facebook and other social media sites have also suspended their related accounts.
Of course, these people didn't watch the events as closely as President Comacho. These were folks right in the middle of everything, so you must take their accounts with a grain of salt. They wouldn't have the same view from where BLOTUS was sitting.
For the people saying "let the police handle it", it's worth noting how the police are just not there.
Quote:
At that point, more of the anarchists and antifa milling nearby saw the huge mob of the Nazis approach and stepped in. They were about 200-300 feet away from us and stepped between us (the clergy and faith leaders) and the Nazis. This enraged the Nazis, who indeed quickly responded violently. At this point, Sekou made a call that it was unsafe—it had gotten very violent very fast—and told us to disperse quickly.
While one obviously can’t objectively say what a kind of alternate reality or “sliding doors”–type situation would have been, one can hypothesize or theorize. Based on what was happening all around, the looks on their faces, the sheer number of them, and the weapons they were wielding, my hypothesis or theory is that had the antifa not stepped in, those of us standing on the steps would definitely have been injured, very likely gravely so. On Democracy Now, Cornel West, who was also in the line with us, said that he felt that the antifa saved his life. I didn’t roll my eyes at that statement or see it as an exaggeration—I saw it as a very reasonable hypothesis based on the facts we had.
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