One of the guys featured is now crying and terrified. Now saying that they went out of their way to be non-violent when he says in that Vice video "we’re not nonviolent, we’ll ####ing kill these people if we have to."
"Balls his eyes out" - he did, did he....hmmm, interesting.
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And delusions can be addressed and erased if there's a high enough priority placed on doing so.
Germany had Nazism burned out of its soul, deliberately, by German policy makers and civil society. They confronted their immediate past and, for the most part, have accepted the shame, guilt, and solemnity of that era.
This is an act in a similar vein and an act that's 150 years overdue. Imagine if the South was forced to accept that slavery was bad from decades long policies of reconciliation and acceptance like in Germany where we would be today?
I agree that's what should have been done. It's not clear how to follow through 150 years after the fact, though. Ban editorial comment peddling the Lost Cause myth? Have the federal government vet the curriculum of every school board in the South?
It's easier to impose guilt and shame on a society scrabbling for food in the devastated landscape of war, where people are starving and desperate to make a new start, than it is on a relatively secure and prosperous population, generations later. What if people don't want to feel guilt? Do you point a gun at their face until they acquiesce?
And a counterpoint to Germany is Japan. Its army was smashed, its cities burned to ashes, its emperor captured, and the country occupied by American troops who wrote a new constitution from scratch. And yet today very few Japanese acknowledge any responsibility or guilt for the country's monstrous crimes in SE Asia. In fact, many (like Americans in the South) regard their country as victims.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
I agree that's what should have been done. It's not clear how to follow through 150 years after the fact, though. Ban editorial comment peddling the Lost Cause myth? Have the federal government vet the curriculum of every school board in the South?
It's easier to impose guilt and shame on a society scrabbling for food in the devastated landscape of war, where people are starving and desperate to make a new start, than it is on a relatively secure and prosperous population, generations later. What if people don't want to feel guilt? Do you point a gun at their face until they acquiesce?
And a counterpoint to Germany is Japan. Its army was smashed, its cities burned to ashes, its emperor captured, and the country occupied by American troops who wrote a new constitution from scratch. And yet today very few Japanese acknowledge any responsibility or guilt for the country's monstrous crimes in SE Asia. In fact, many (like Americans in the South) regard their country as victims.
*bewildered face*
Japan is not a counterpoint, it's a point... to my argument.
They never had to fess up for their crimes. The United States needed a quickly rebuilt and emboldened Japan to act as a counter-weight in the context of rapid communist expansion in East Asia. As such, they didn't want to mess with decades long introspection. They needed a strong, nationally proud Japan to dominate the region.
One of the guys featured is now crying and terrified. Now saying that they went out of their way to be non-violent when he says in that Vice video "we’re not nonviolent, we’ll ####ing kill these people if we have to."
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Japan is not a counterpoint, it's a point... to my argument.
They never had to fess up for their crimes. The United States needed a quickly rebuilt and emboldened Japan to act as a counter-weight in the context of rapid communist expansion in East Asia. As such, they didn't want to mess with decades long introspection. They needed a strong, nationally proud Japan to dominate the region.
Japan also benefited from the cover it got from the holocaust and the fact that its most heinous atrocities had occurred before 'the war' in its invasion of China.
In comparison with the death camps, the vast amount of film of mass executions etc the stuff Japan did during the war tended to get overlooked, I also think the fact we dropped a couple of Nukes on them tended to mute western outrage as well, right from 1945 there were legitimate debate as to whether we had to use the bombs and that debate took the edge off our condemnation of Japan.
I agree that's what should have been done. It's not clear how to follow through 150 years after the fact, though. Ban editorial comment peddling the Lost Cause myth? Have the federal government vet the curriculum of every school board in the South?
It's easier to impose guilt and shame on a society scrabbling for food in the devastated landscape of war, where people are starving and desperate to make a new start, than it is on a relatively secure and prosperous population, generations later. What if people don't want to feel guilt? Do you point a gun at their face until they acquiesce?
And a counterpoint to Germany is Japan. Its army was smashed, its cities burned to ashes, its emperor captured, and the country occupied by American troops who wrote a new constitution from scratch. And yet today very few Japanese acknowledge any responsibility or guilt for the country's monstrous crimes in SE Asia. In fact, many (like Americans in the South) regard their country as victims.
Utterly facepalm worthy.
White Southerners are delusional about the civil war in part because of the civil war memorials lionizing confederate generals. So, the solution is to remove the freakin' statues that help feed the delusion. It's not complicated, you don't need guns, you just do what governments across the states are doing now.
Japan is the south in your analogy.
I mean, I just...what are you trying to say here?
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If North Korea is ever liberated and reconciled with South Korea, should they leave up all the current statues and propaganda murals/monuments to not confuse anyone who thinks what is happening right now in that country is right?
And delusions can be addressed and erased if there's a high enough priority placed on doing so.
Germany had Nazism burned out of its soul, deliberately, by German policy makers and civil society. They confronted their immediate past and, for the most part, have accepted the shame, guilt, and solemnity of that era.
This is an act in a similar vein and an act that's 150 years overdue. Imagine if the South was forced to accept that slavery was bad from decades long policies of reconciliation and acceptance like in Germany where we would be today?
You can try to educate, but you and I both know how even education and facts fails to reverse an entrenched belief system for most people. Beyond that, an act "in similar vein" to how Germany handled Nazism post-war runs face first into the US Constitution, and particularly the First Amendment.
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White Southerners are delusional about the civil war in part because of the civil war memorials lionizing confederate generals. So, the solution is to remove the freakin' statues that help feed the delusion.
I recommended moving the statues up-thread.
What we're talking about now is how to achieve what you and Tinordi say must be done - make the South feel collective guilt over the Civil War, in the same way Germans feel collective guilt over WW2.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash Walken
Japan is the south in your analogy.
I mean, I just...what are you trying to say here?
I'm saying you can't make people feel shame if they don't want to feel shame. China, Korea, and others countries and SE Asia have been avidly trying to get Japan to admit its guilt in war crimes for decades, and Japan basically brushes them off. They're not interested in feeling shame or guilt.
You want to finish the job that should have been done during Reconstruction - make the South accept the war guilt for the Civil War, and feel shame over the culture of the antebellum South.
So how are you going to achieve that? What, specifically, are you going to do to change the beliefs and minds of millions of people? Let's hear some actual, tangible proposals, instead of just emoting and thumping your chest over how backward Southerners are.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
Last edited by CliffFletcher; 08-16-2017 at 01:25 PM.
Japan has serious revisionist views around the atrocities commited during WWII. Such as comfort women, and the horrific "medical" research committed by unit 731 or 100 or the rape of Nanking. They were every bit as evil as the Nazi's and that should not be burried.
It is why you see political rows between Japan and China over history texts and what war memorials the PM visits in Japan. So I think there are allegorical parallels.
Replace statues of the villains if slavery and the civil war with statues and memorials to the victims of slavery and the civil war and heros if the civil Rights movement.
Make it illegal to fly the Confederate flag in public buildings and property. Remove the Confederate flag from government emblems and flags. Dismantle the racist electoral college that has it's roots directly in the 3/5th slavery compromise. Increase civil rights investigative DOJ components to illustrate the federal government is serious about prosecuting hate crimes.
Restore the voting rights act.
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If North Korea is ever liberated and reconciled with South Korea, should they leave up all the current statues and propaganda murals/monuments to not confuse anyone who thinks what is happening right now in that country is right?
Hard to say. It's whatever the 'liberators' want to do. I believe in East Berlin all the communist statues are gone but the communist street names remain.
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I was born and raised in Florence, Ala., a small town on the northern banks of the Tennessee River in a region known locally as the Shoals.
The South loves myths and legends, and while they may have roots in the truth, they often overlook certain complexities. We raise our children steeped in “Gone With the Wind” folklore and pretend that all the things we saw in “12 Years a Slave” didn’t happen.
The flag might have been a backdrop at Lynyrd Skynyrd concerts, but beyond that it wasn’t really anything any of us thought much about at the time.
I started hearing things like “heritage, not hate” from people who were perhaps well-meaning, but were nevertheless ignoring the fact that their beloved Southern Cross flew at Klan rallies — that it was a symbol for a war fought on the principle of one man owning another. Let’s pause to think about that one for a moment: one man owning another.
It’s high time that a symbol so divisive be removed. The flags coming down symbolize the extent to which those who cry “heritage, not hate” have already lost their argument. Why would we want to fly a symbol that has been used by the K.K.K. and terrorists like Dylann Roof? Why would a people steeped in the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Bible want to rally around a flag that so many associate with hatred and violence? Why fly a flag that stands for the very things we as Southerners have worked so hard to move beyond?
If we want to truly honor our Southern forefathers, we should do it by moving on from the symbols and prejudices of their time and building on the diversity, the art and the literary traditions we’ve inherited from them. It’s time to study and learn about who we are and where we came from while finding a way forward without the baggage of our ancestors’ fears and superstitions. It’s time to quit rallying around a flag that divides. And it is time for the South to — dare I say it? — rise up and show our nation what a beautiful place our region is, and what more it could become.
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Often the argument for preserving Confederate statues and allowing Confederate flags is that we should not forget our history. In Germany, Nazi buildings are extremely hard to come by — nearly all have been destroyed. Yet Germany certainly has not forgotten anything: There's just a recognition that remembering and memorializing are two different things.
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Yet Germany certainly has not forgotten anything: There's just a recognition that remembering and memorializing are two different things.
This x1000...I've been to Germany and Berlin. I vividly remember commenting to my wife how little there actually was in terms of Nazi sites/symbolism. You know the history and the terrible atrocities and it felt "right" in how the Germans have handled their past. We left Berlin with an appreciation for how they decided to deal with their collective history.
The other thing that needs to happen is an honest discussion in the political sphere from Democrats in US government directly combatting the ideology across the aisle from them that is explicitly targeting the voting rights and participation of black citizens.
Again, there is only a single party in the united States that continuously attempts to subvert democracy by preventing eligible black voters from voting.
Democrats and media need to address, formally, WHY black voters vote near unanimously for Democrats. The reason is OBVIOUS. It is because the GOP has, and continues to, represent and support RACISTS and RACIST ideological policy solutions.
Stripping black voters of their right to vote because you know they will never vote for you because they know you're a bunch of bigots is RACIST. It isn't "politics", it is RACISM.
Last edited by Flash Walken; 08-16-2017 at 03:57 PM.
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This x1000...I've been to Germany and Berlin. I vividly remember commenting to my wife how little there actually was in terms of Nazi sites/symbolism. You know the history and the terrible atrocities and it felt "right" in how the Germans have handled their past. We left Berlin with an appreciation for how they decided to deal with their collective history.
Another aspect is that their memorials that do exist aren't bull#### aggrandizement. they are visceral, horrific, emotionally stirring memorials incorporating historical artifacts designed to encourage reflection. Not statues of goebbels looking regal on horseback.
The other thing that needs to happen is an honest discussion in the political sphere from Democrats in US government is directly combat the ideology across the aisle from them that is explicitly targeting the voting rights and participation of black citizens.
Again, there is only a single party in the united States that continuously attempts to subvert democracy by preventing eligible black voters from voting.
Democrats and media need to address, formally, WHY black voters vote near unanimously for Democrats. The reason is OBVIOUS. It is because the GOP has, and continues to, represent and support RACISTS and RACIST ideological policy solutions.
Stripping black voters of their right to vote because you know they will never vote for you because they know you're a bunch of bigots is RACIST. It isn't "politics", it is RACISM.
No no no Flash, for it to be racist it has to be because they vocally hate black people. Systemic racism is just a happy coincidence but you can't call it racism. Careful now or you'll start a semantic argument regarding racism vs good old fashion bigotry with posts like this.
Think of the words Flash, the poor words must be respected and used oh so carefully. They're fragile little things that will burst and disappear like so many bubbles if they're touched.
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