[News] Bettman upholds 20 game Wideman suspension. NHLPA files appeal to neutral arbitrator

[This post is terrible]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

You are doing a very poor job of trying to backpeddle out of your own dumb comment, dissentowner.

Though it anyone is an expert at looking like a fool, it would be you.

I don't know why, but I read this like the two of you are serious political rivals on a show like a House of Cards.

I'm hooked!

[MarkGio]

Well the Flames play their 20th game since the suspension tomorrow. Lulz

[powderjunkie]

21-24-3 w/ Wideman - 45 pts in 48 games; 0.469 pt%

7-10-2 w/o Wideman 16 pts in 19 games; 0.421 pt%


9-9-1 in the 19 games before the suspension (13-9-1 if I cherry pick to the start of the win streak on Dec. 1). Our 7 game win streak occurred with Wideman in the lineup. Our 7 game winless streak (1 OTL) happened w/o Wideman. 5 games into Wideman's suspension the Flames went on a 1-9-1 stretch.

Is it likely the Flames' fortunes would have been any different if it were an IMO reasonable 5 game suspension? Probably not, but we'll never know.

[Benched]

tick tock

tick tock

[domingo]

Originally Posted by saillias

Do you remember how bad he was? If anything, the NHL is hindering our tank. We've had to play competent, useful Nakladal, Wotherspoon and Kevin in his absence! Pfft.

Wideman helped the tanking because the Flames got a lot more penalties in subsequent games after what he did to the referees. That was his biggest contribution. haha

[1_Flames_Fan]

I can't believe this is taking so long. I guarantee if this was a star player on another team it would have been long settled by now. This is completely disrespectful to Wideman, and the Flames organization.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

I have to laugh at those who are so incredulous at the NHL's inability to handle discipline issues with any level of consistency or desire to appear principled. Guys...this is the NHL, this is what they do. Where have you been all these years?

I'm not surprised at this outcome at all. NHL does embarrassing better than any other league.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

You are doing a very poor job of trying to backpeddle out of your own dumb comment, dissentowner.

Though it anyone is an expert at looking like a fool, it would be you.

lol, this is great, you got caught trolling and you are still going?

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

NHL does embarrassing better than any other league.

Yeah... but this is a whole new level of embarrassing. One of the larger standard suspensions on the league books and the appeal process takes the entire length? That's pretty incompetent.

[Erick Estrada]

I hope this neutral arbitrator doesn't get to cash a big, fat cheque for this seeing he/she won't come to a resolution in time for any worthwhile resolution.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

21-24-3 w/ Wideman - 45 pts in 48 games; 0.469 pt%

7-10-2 w/o Wideman 16 pts in 19 games; 0.421 pt%


9-9-1 in the 19 games before the suspension (13-9-1 if I cherry pick to the start of the win streak on Dec. 1). Our 7 game win streak occurred with Wideman in the lineup. Our 7 game winless streak (1 OTL) happened w/o Wideman. 5 games into Wideman's suspension the Flames went on a 1-9-1 stretch.

Is it likely the Flames' fortunes would have been any different if it were an IMO reasonable 5 game suspension? Probably not, but we'll never know.

Wideman does wear an A

[saillias]

The Wideman suspension also coincided with the Ramo injury and then Russell injury and the sell-off of our 3 UFAs. We were going to sink there either way.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by saillias

The Wideman suspension also coincided with the Ramo injury and then Russell injury and the sell-off of our 3 UFAs. We were going to sink there either way.

Yup, it turns out Ramo's injury was that 5th game of the suspension (I'd thought it was a bit later), so it is certainly fair to correlate the slide more with that. The Flames staying within a sniff probably wouldn't have been a good thing as it might have limited the deadline sell-off.

IMO Wideman isn't nearly as bad as many people here say; although he is certainly not playing to the value of his contract. My point is that the Flames could have a legitimate argument of suffering damages in this whole situation.

[Moneyhands23]

This has the feel of a Friday afternoon firing!

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Yeah... but this is a whole new level of embarrassing. One of the larger standard suspensions on the league books and the appeal process takes the entire length? That's pretty incompetent.

We're not talking about a little incident that could be handled in days. The arguments that the NHLPA and its experts brought up have huge, long lasting ramifications to the league. If you think it's an easy decision, I ask you the core question in this case. Should players be responsible for their actions if they have, or are diagnosed with, a concussion?

The fact that the neutral third party arbitrator has also taken substantial time only goes to justify the NHL's slower undertaking.

Look, I'm not saying that there isn't room for improvement. Maybe skipping the Bettman step completely would make sense for a more expedited process in future cases like this but this isn't a simple case that should be solved within a couple days. Read the decision, read the NHLPA's argument with regards to concussion (and the reason they went to the third-party) and understand the consequences.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

We're not talking about a little incident that could be handled in days. The arguments that the NHLPA and its experts brought up have huge, long lasting ramifications to the league. If you think it's an easy decision, I ask you the core question in this case. Should players be responsible for their actions if they have, or are diagnosed with, a concussion?

The fact that the neutral third party arbitrator has also taken substantial time only goes to justify the NHL's slower undertaking.

Look, I'm not saying that there isn't room for improvement. Maybe skipping the Bettman step completely would make sense for a more expedited process in future cases like this but this isn't a simple case that should be solved within a couple days. Read the decision, read the NHLPA's argument with regards to concussion (and the reason they went to the third-party) and understand the consequences.

Why is this continually coming up? The neutral arbitrator does not work for the NHL and his decision has no bearing on any future legal ramifications the league faces. These guys are CBA mediators who specialize in ensuring the workplace disputes get sorted out fairly.

Think about a union trucking company. A driver didn't get paid some overtime hours and went to his shop stewart. The dispute eventually goes to an arbitrator who works at arms length to the provincial labour agency. The arbitrator's decision doesn't have a bearing on later law suites from former employees who file a sexual harassment claim.

Wideman is disputing a punishment decision. That's different than a law suit about safety standards (ie, concussion prevention).

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

Why is this continually coming up?

Ah what?

First the NHL had to rule on the case which would absolutely set precedent. This can not be debated, it's fact. What they ruled, to a degree, was that Wideman was still liable for his actions regardless of the potential effects the concussion may have had on him (or maybe more aptly ruled that there was no evidence to prove that Wideman was affected by the potential behavioural effects of a concussion).

Of course that should take time. It's far from an easy decision. They are afterall, to a degree, arguing against concussion experts. Again, anyone who wants to answer that underlined question, be my guest.

This was before the arbitrator enters the equation and the argument doesn't change once it has. The NHL had to be careful whichever way they went with this decision because of ramifications from future incidents, the concussion lawsuit, the officials union and the NHLPA itself.

Now, whether or not the arbitrators decision would set precedent, the fact it has taken so long shows that the NHL was not unreasonable in their approach. At least not to a degree that people have been crying about. It's a very contentious argument that does have both medicine, evidence and logic backing both sides. It's far from an easy decision, this is no longer "oops, sorry I was looking down and didn't see him" that I feel a vast majority of posters still believe it is.

I would argue that if the NHLPA successful argues that Wideman was not liable for his actions because he was concussed to the arbitrator, that would absolutely set precedent. Why would the NHL think they could argue differently next time an incident like this comes up when the NHLPA will have the same experts to argue the exact same thing to a neutral arbitrator?

Again though, really besides the point. The NHL took so long because it would set precedent and would have major consequences if they ruled differently. The third party doesn't change that, it just gives the NHLPA one more option to argue their case.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Ah what?

First the NHL had to rule on the case which would absolutely set precedent. This can not be debated, it's fact. What they ruled, to a degree, was that Wideman was still liable for his actions regardless of the potential effects the concussion may have had on him (or maybe more aptly ruled that there was no evidence to prove that Wideman was affected by the potential behavioural effects of a concussion).

Of course that should take time. It's far from an easy decision. They are afterall, to a degree, arguing against concussion experts. Again, anyone who wants to answer that underlined question, be my guest.

This was before the arbitrator enters the equation and the argument doesn't change once it has. The NHL had to be careful whichever way they went with this decision because of ramifications from future incidents, the concussion lawsuit, the officials union and the NHLPA itself.

Now, whether or not the arbitrators decision would set precedent, the fact it has taken so long shows that the NHL was not unreasonable in their approach. At least not to a degree that people have been crying about. It's a very contentious argument that does have both medicine, evidence and logic backing both sides. It's far from an easy decision, this is no longer "oops, sorry I was looking down and didn't see him" that I feel a vast majority of posters still believe it is.

I would argue that if the NHLPA successful argues that Wideman was not liable for his actions because he was concussed to the arbitrator, that would absolutely set precedent. Why would the NHL think they could argue differently next time an incident like this comes up when the NHLPA will have the same experts to argue the exact same thing to a neutral arbitrator?

Again though, really besides the point. The NHL took so long because it would set precedent and would have major consequences if they ruled differently. The third party doesn't change that, it just gives the NHLPA one more option to argue their case.

I'm not suggesting the NHLs original punishment or Gary Bettman's review wasnt legally important. Of course they were, hence why it took so long.

I'm just saying the arbitrator is not influenced by the NHLs legal concerns surrounding concussions. The guy doesn't work for the league or has a care in the world as to what happens to the NHL

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

The NHL took so long because it would set precedent and would have major consequences if they ruled differently.

Don't care. The NHL made a discaplinary decision and the appeal process has dragged on to the point that by the time it's resolved the (lengthy) suspension will have been served regardless of the decision of the arbitrator.

That's incompetent.

If the NHL wants to have an appeal process that can take this long then fine... allow the player to play pending appeal... but it's patently absurd the way it's done now.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Don't care. The NHL made a discaplinary decision and the appeal process has dragged on to the point that by the time it's resolved the (lengthy) suspension will have been served regardless of the decision of the arbitrator.

That's incompetent.

If the NHL wants to have an appeal process that can take this long then fine... allow the player to play pending appeal... but it's patently absurd the way it's done now.

No it's not incompetent. It's a challenging question that you certainly wont attempt to answer, so I don't know why you expect the NHL to be able to decide in a day.

The NHLPA and NHL agreed to the process. Probably didn't think that a player would attack a ref because he was concussed though. Remember this is the same NHLPA that supported an appeal on the Bertuzzi suspension and look how long that dragged out. I don't remember us crying that he wasn't allowed to play against the Flames in the playoffs...