[Signing] Flames sign Deryk Engelland (3yrs, $2.9M AAV)

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by neo45

How is he not a comparable? He is a defenceman on the same team signed to a deal by the same GM. The agent will use that. Simple really

And again I dont know why this became only about Giordano

Who would? Give us an example of someone who would use Engelland as a comparable

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by neo45

How is he not a comparable? He is a defenceman on the same team signed to a deal by the same GM. The agent will use that. Simple really

He won't use him because he's got way more relevant comparisons that he can make that will make a better case.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

He won't use him because he's got way more relevant comparisons that he can make that will make a better case.

Exactly. If Giordano and Brodie are using Engelland as a comparible, that is great news for the Flames.

If we're going to play this game, those two would be using better players making more money as their comparables and arguing for a hell of a lot more than $3 million per season.

The kind of guys that would compare themselves to Engelland are other 5/6 defencemen. And those are easy to say "no thanks" to when you want.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Who would? Give us an example of someone who would use Engelland as a comparable

Well for starters there is no way Russell or Glencross take less than Engelland for their next contract

If Brodie goes to arbitration the mediator looks at other contracts signed by the GM in making his decision

Also future FA targets if we are looking to sign someone new, which we will

But also in my original post the contract negotiation thing was only a minor aspect of my point on why it is fair to criticize this signing, and I feel we've gotten a little to into it

The big point is we are now giving 2.9 to a guy who is at best the third worst player on the team

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Exactly. If Giordano and Brodie are using Engelland as a comparible, that is great news for the Flames.
.

Yup. It isn't like Sidney Crosby is going to use David Clarkson as a comparable. And that's basically what is being suggested here.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Yup. It isn't like Sidney Crosby is going to use David Clarkson as a comparable. And that's basically what is being suggested here.

That really is quite the leap from what I sam saying.

Kessell using Clarkson as an example is probably more fair to say. Did it affect negotiations? I think you have a hard time saying it 100 percent didn't

And for like the 5th time I didnt specificly suggest Giordano, I dont see how it went down that road for so long haha

[Red John]

It's really too bad.

Have a feeling that Engelland is never going to get a fair shake by a lot of Flames fans. Have no problem with the contract given the current situation but Engelland is in a no-win situation, if he does his job and is a great third pairing guy who brings intangibles that fans can't see on the ice he'll still be called overpaid. If he has a rough year he'll be a huge whipping boy.

Really hope that fans can forget about his salary and give him a fair shake as a Flame.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by neo45

How can you say that it won't? You just admitted agents look for any comparable to get their guys the most money...

And we all know these comparable deals are binding in future negotiations with completely different sets of people.

[Chill Cosby]

It really would be just awful if Russell and Glencross got 500k raises because of this.

[Read Only]

Originally Posted by neo45

Well for starters there is no way Russell or Glencross take less than Engelland for their next contract

If Brodie goes to arbitration the mediator looks at other contracts signed by the GM in making his decision

Also future FA targets if we are looking to sign someone new, which we will

But also in my original post the contract negotiation thing was only a minor aspect of my point on why it is fair to criticize this signing, and I feel we've gotten a little to into it

The big point is we are now giving 2.9 to a guy who is at best the third worst player on the team

Do you think Glencross and/or Russell would have taken less than 2.9 before this deal was signed?

And if the team wants Russell under 2.9 and he won't sign then who cares? If he isn't playing well enough to be worth more than 2.9 he won't be much if a loss.

If the arbitrator looks at this in a Brodie case that is awesome for the Flames.

And who cares if we are paying our so-called 3rd worst guy 2.9 million if he does what the team wants him to if and he doesn't prevent them team from signing whoever they want?

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Read Only

If the arbitrator looks at this in a Brodie case that is awesome for the Flames.

I don't think UFA contracts are even allowed to be presented as comparables in an arbitration hearing.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by neo45

If Brodie goes to arbitration the mediator looks at other contracts signed by the GM in making his decision

Arbitration cases only look at RFA signings not UFA signings.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

I don't think UFA contracts are even allowed to be presented as comparables in an arbitration hearing.

You could be right on that actually I didnt check


But anyways this contract is bad and there are oppourtunity costs involved in signing it that people are choosing to ignore

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by _Q_

The Flames make a couple of great signings, yet this is the thread that has turned into the 550+ post monster.

Flames made some pretty reasonable moves so:
- Oiler and Nucks fan need to try and grab whatever tiny crumb they've been thrown.
- Burke haters trying to over emphasize the importance of this so that they can justify their complaints.

[edslunch]

I'm not too worked up about it. I just find it funny that management who refused to trade a pending ufa for a 3rd on principle and who railed against offer sheets as inflating the second contract is ok seriously overpaying for a marginal player

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by neo45

You could be right on that actually I didnt check


But anyways this contract is bad and there are oppourtunity costs involved in signing it that people are choosing to ignore

I don't think we're ignoring it so much as arguing that the 'opportunity cost' is being overstated. And Engelland certainly isn't the first bottom pairing defenceman to get overpaid. Adam Pardy in Dallas and Mike Commodore in Columbus rapidly come to mind. The Flames haven't broken the salary structure with this one. He's just going to take an extra couple million dollars out of the owners' pocketbooks.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

I don't think UFA contracts are even allowed to be presented as comparables in an arbitration hearing.

From the CBA (in case anyone wanted to actually read the part, sorry if nobody cares!):

The following categories of evidence are inadmissible and shall not be considered by the Salary Arbitrator:
...
(B) Any SPC entered into by an Unrestricted Free Agent, including SPCs signed by Players after the Player's Club has exercised a walk-away right pursuant to Section 12.10;
...

[Street Pharmacist]

I'm not worried about the cost, or opportunity cost or future negotiations or any of the like. It's all extremely small potatoes here.

However, regardless of salary cap context it's still an embarrassingly high contract for a player who's barely an NHLer.

After stewing on this for some time now, the only logical reason I can think of is Treliving wanted to spend the max possible to avoid dropping below salary floor of injuries occur while affecting the competitiveness of the team the least. He gets a decent cap hit for a player that will be good in the room, but not make the team better in the standings

[photon]

Originally Posted by edslunch

I'm not too worked up about it. I just find it funny that management who refused to trade a pending ufa for a 3rd on principle and who railed against offer sheets as inflating the second contract is ok seriously overpaying for a marginal player

I don't see any inconsistencies.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

I don't think we're ignoring it so much as arguing that the 'opportunity cost' is being overstated. And Engelland certainly isn't the first bottom pairing defenceman to get overpaid. Adam Pardy in Dallas and Mike Commodore in Columbus rapidly come to mind. The Flames haven't broken the salary structure with this one. He's just going to take an extra couple million dollars out of the owners' pocketbooks.

Speaking of Adam Pardy, I seem to recall he was just signed by Winnipeg for $700.00. Adam is a big strong defenceman who plays aggressively, and has a great breakout pass.

You can't convince me that Engelland is worth more than 4 Pardys.