What can be done? Iran

[PyramidsofMars]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

No but wishing that Iran would bomb the hell out of them borders on it.

if he's being literal, then yes. I kinda took it more as a frustrated exclamation than anything.

[CaptainCrunch]

I believe that his posts are pretty much literal.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Try to stay on topic champ..

The topic was Iran. You brought up Israel.

You're an anti-semite and a hypocrite

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

The topic was Iran. You brought up Israel.

You're an anti-semite and a hypocrite

Shouldn't you be reading comic books somewhere......

[T@T]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck_hic

NO country on this planet has the balls to use a nuke........NOBODY. That includes Korea, Iran and the rest of 'em....

1. Nuclear weapon development is nothing but a propaganda device to spread fear....

The truth is that nobody knows for sure if Iran is making this weapons grade uranium. Just like in Iraq............and if they were, so what? There is a difference between simply having a weapon in your posession, and actually using it...

Are you nuts? propaganda device my arse.

Have you even considered the possibility of Iran giving a terrorist group a 10 mega-tonne nuke that could fit in a trunk of a car? If this ever happened nobody could live in a 25 mile radius of the explosion for 500 years

Sure they may not start firing missile's from Iran but that leadership should never have nuclear capability.

I fixed your username!!

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Shouldn't you be reading comic books somewhere......

Yeah, at my house. Shouldn't you be doing some basic fact checking to back up your points.

Wait, forgot who I was talking to.

[Daradon]

I believe the whole 'threat from Iran' is largely overblown.

Most of the talk from Ahmadinejad is simply posturing for the clerics beneath him. And as Cowperson pointed out, he's even starting to stand up to them now.

There has been more rallies and movements for democratic type laws and ideals as well in the past few years by the youth of the nation.

It is definitely a country that needs a lot of work and help. It's a country that has committed crimes against it's own people, especially it's women, and it should be monitored closely in regards to it's interactions with it's neighbors and the rest of the world. It is a regime that is scary and evil in many ways, I don't disagree with that.

But I do believe it's less of a threat to Isreal now than it was in the past. And is of no threat to the Western world. I don't think there is anything we CAN do about Iran, (really could we ever anyway?) but I don't think much needs to be done. Things will change there slowly.

Really the only thing that we could help with is if the citizens of the country demanded freedoms on such a scale that the government started clamping down harder on them, causing a larger incident. Then perhaps a UN force could be used to encourage a regime change.

But only if it started within the borders first. Not as a unilateral Bush/Iraq type decision. It is there country to do with as they want. And it's doubtful that they are very dangerous to interests outside their border.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by PyramidsofMars

Criticizing Israel does not make you anti-semitic, even if mikey's views are a tad beyond the norm.

How quick you are to defend someone who wants Israel destroyed...Mikey basically stated that he wouldn't mind if Israel got nuked.

We know where you stand Pyramid.

[Daradon]

RE: Hicks and Fascists...

Maybe we as an internet forum should just start putting people on ignore who make ridiculous comments like 'I wouldn't mind seeing X wiped of the face of the map'. (It happens with the Muslim nations as much as it does with the Jewish nation/people)

I doubt any rational argument is going to change well thought out views like those anyway. And name calling only serves to inflame the argument and give the original poster an air or legitimacy.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

I don't believe that any leader is unstable or lacks intellegence, despite how our media portrays them...

[FlamesAddiction]

This might be crazy, but how about this idea:

You could install a dictator in a neighbouring country (like I dunno, say Iraq), and then you can give him WMDs and logistical aid on how to use them on the Iranians. Then 15 years later or so, you can invade them for using them.

[PyramidsofMars]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

How quick you are to defend someone who wants Israel destroyed...Mikey basically stated that he wouldn't mind if Israel got nuked.

We know where you stand Pyramid.

riiiiiiighhht...

Originally Posted by PyramidsofMars

The other side causes mass civilian casualties with its military actions (far more civilian casualties than the Israelis suffer), and continues to seek more and more land and settlements. I am aware that it is difficult for the Israelis to destroy militants because they, like the cowards they are, hole up in civilian houses in civilian areas, but that does not alter the suffering the Palestinians go through.

My father's family is mostly Arab-Israeli, but with a few Palestinians who couldn't get into Israel. None of these people hate Jews or want violence. All of them constantly feel oppressed and dislike their lives. Look, I'm aware of the sociopolitical history. I am not in any way suggesting the Israeli state has 'no right to exist' or whatever. But I am not blind, and in fact am personally affected through family by the state most Palestinians live in, even those not in refugee camps and such. You have to understand, no matter how much you argue the point that there was no Palestine, that the land was not owned by the people, in actual effect what you have is a people whose immediate ancestors in many cases were driven out of their homes, their land taken away, and their success and often education meaning absolutely nothing in the aftermath. Did the Arabs invite much of the aggression? Yes. The sad reality is that 'the Arabs' does not cover the innocent victims of the whole thing.

that is the only post I have made on the conflict. In fact, you responded to it by saying you did NOT see the same anti-semitic drivel from me that you did from others, which is why I am surprised by your post.

Did you miss the part where I said that most of my (admittedly distant) relatives are Arab-Israelis who, um, would be destroyed if Israel was nuked?

Besides this, I have posted negatively about Islam several times, and am an atheist. If it makes you feel better, I am not even from a Muslim family (Eastern Orthodox).

Your attitude is exactly why I posted what I posted, it has less to do with anything mikey said than the fact that I am sick and tired of every single person who speaks against Israel (and mind, I have never even said that Israel doesn`t have a right to exist or anything of the sort) being either outright called an anti-semite, or having that insinuated about him or her, as you just did.

For what it`s worth, I`ve become more pro-Israel since reading Dershowitz`s book (The Case for Israel), but even he has criticized some of Israel`s policies. I am surprised he hasn`t been labeled a self-hating Jew...

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by PyramidsofMars

riiiiiiighhht...



that is the only post I have made on the conflict. In fact, you responded to it by saying you did NOT see the same anti-semitic drivel from me that you did from others, which is why I am surprised by your post.

Did you miss the part where I said that most of my (admittedly distant) relatives are Arab-Israelis who, um, would be destroyed if Israel was nuked?

Besides this, I have posted negatively about Islam several times, and am an atheist. If it makes you feel better, I am not even from a Muslim family (Eastern Orthodox).

Your attitude is exactly why I posted what I posted, it has less to do with anything mikey said than the fact that I am sick and tired of every single person who speaks against Israel (and mind, I have never even said that Israel doesn`t have a right to exist or anything of the sort) being either outright called an anti-semite, or having that insinuated about him or her, as you just did.

For what it`s worth, I`ve become more pro-Israel since reading Dershowitz`s book (The Case for Israel), but even he has criticized some of Israel`s policies. I am surprised he hasn`t been labeled a self-hating Jew...

You jumped in to defend a post about blowing up Israel. It is as simple as that. I made a point to say that shows where you stand. And the reason I did that was to call you out; you either stand for blowing up Israel or have some other opinion. How is what I did surprising?

I could care less if you posted positively or negatively about any group (Muslim or anyone else), you were somehow supportive of blowing up Israel. At least that is what the post made it seem like. And who cares if you are atheist? That point has nothing to do with blowing up Israel.

What attitude do I have? You defended someone who wished Israel would be blown up. I brought it up. You have the chance to clear the air. You have the attitude it seems. You instantly threw the 'criticize Israel and you will be attacked' card. And you defended Mikey because someone was 'going' to call you a name? Sheesh, that makes little sense.

It would be nice to actually have a debate about Israeli policy without the crazy rhetoric that some people throw out around here. And you basically are doing the same thing.

[PyramidsofMars]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

You jumped in to defend a post about blowing up Israel. It is as simple as that. I made a point to say that shows where you stand. And the reason I did that was to call you out; you either stand for blowing up Israel or have some other opinion. How is what I did surprising?

I could care less if you posted positively or negatively about any group (Muslim or anyone else), you were somehow supportive of blowing up Israel. At least that is what the post made it seem like. And who cares if you are atheist? That point has nothing to do with blowing up Israel.

What attitude do I have? You defended someone who wished Israel would be blown up. I brought it up. You have the chance to clear the air. You have the attitude it seems. You instantly threw the 'criticize Israel and you will be attacked' card. And you defended Mikey because someone was 'going' to call you a name? Sheesh, that makes little sense.

It would be nice to actually have a debate about Israeli policy without the crazy rhetoric that some people throw out around here. And you basically are doing the same thing.

I never said it made sense; I might be proficient at various sorts of formal and informal logic in an academic setting but sure, I will admit to making little sense a lot of the time. Plus, not an excuse at all, but I am drunk most of the time I post here. Anyway, I really do not know why I even said anything, let alone in response to that, as I explained I took it as far from literal and more an exasperated exclamation than anything; I have numerous times said things like, oh, I just wish someone would level Mecca and Rome and get it over with. I have never meant that I literally wanted someone to bomb Mecca or Rome the next day, I just said it because I was pissed off with religion and what I perceived to be the social ills it caused.

We may have had a reasonable, crazy rhetoric-free discussion in that other thread a while back had I responded to your post, but I did not, simply because I feel I have wasted way too much of my life arguing (sometimes reasonably, most of the time unreasonably) about the whole deal. So why say anything in the first place? Cannot tell you why, I guess I am just incapable of keeping my mouth shut.

Right, here it goes, my semi-final say on the matter, I do not support nuking Israel, I am not an anti-semite. I am, however, devoid of sense on occasion, and do not think things through when I probably should. That's about it.

[Nage Waza]

Thanks Pyramid, that is basically why I made my post. I am not sure why Mikey makes the posts he makes, clearly they deserve no defense.

I too have no doubts that Israel could do things differently, but they are not dealing with sane and normal issues. There is no country in the world dealing with Israel's problems. Yet there are many other countries around the world with REAL human rights abuses currently committing murder against their own citizens and neighbors. Yet online we typically just see people bashing Israel and ignoring serious atrocities elsewhere. It certainly is not always antisemitism, yet often it really is. In fact, many of the bashers have no idea what they fell into, which is usually a mammoth antisemitic campaign to bash Israel in our universities.

[flylock shox]

Back on topic, I think the best method to "handle" Iran would be a form of soft containment, effectively buying time for the liberal forces in the country to mature and to make their own changes.

I have little doubt that outside forces (the United States in particular) are also operating in Iran, awaiting the time to take action to trigger a revolution. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they've already taken such measures, and things just haven't yet progressed to the tipping point.

As for tackling Iran the hard way - military intervention - I don't see how it could be effectively done. Iran is not Iraq. It is significantly more powerful militarily, and has political connections that Iraq never did. Furthermore, the US can't afford another war, neither can the UK. Israel's position in the mid-East is far too tenuous for it to take any direct action unless it was in response to an attack or clearly imminent attack. Basically, as I see it, the western powers are paralyzed. I don't know what, if any, approach eastern powers (Russia, China) might adopt.

[Gozer]

I have been encouraged by recent events in Iran.

The elections and subsequent rioting in the streets led me to believe (and BBC coverage focused on) the younger generation of Iranians do not have the same level of extreme beliefs.

There will always be morons that advocate genocide *cough*mikey*cough, but generally these morons usually only lead to building a case against it.

[sa226]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

Back on topic, I think the best method to "handle" Iran would be a form of soft containment, effectively buying time for the liberal forces in the country to mature and to make their own changes.

I have little doubt that outside forces (the United States in particular) are also operating in Iran, awaiting the time to take action to trigger a revolution. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they've already taken such measures, and things just haven't yet progressed to the tipping point.

As for tackling Iran the hard way - military intervention - I don't see how it could be effectively done. Iran is not Iraq. It is significantly more powerful militarily, and has political connections that Iraq never did. Furthermore, the US can't afford another war, neither can the UK. Israel's position in the mid-East is far too tenuous for it to take any direct action unless it was in response to an attack or clearly imminent attack. Basically, as I see it, the western powers are paralyzed. I don't know what, if any, approach eastern powers (Russia, China) might adopt.

Quoted for agreeance.....if thats a word.

I am a red blooded male so deep down I would love to see NATO bomb to snot out of them.

BUT I think any military action against Iran would be disasterous unless it was a last resort of self defense. Iran is much stronger than Iraq. Also there is a deep rooted historical alliance with Russia.

I am not very well versed in whats going on over there but I believe the people of Iran are better educated and more free thinking than the people of Iraq. Patiently encouraging and awaiting a revolution may be the best way to deal with that oppressive regime.

Probably billions of dollars of resources will have to go into monitoring the situation minute by minute to contain any threat that may spill over to another country, but it is still a better option than destroying all military power and infrastructure. Collateral damage is always a big problem.

The middle east has been a hot bed for tension for thousands of years, and it will probably continue to be for thousands more.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by Gozer

I have been encouraged by recent events in Iran.

The elections and subsequent rioting in the streets led me to believe (and BBC coverage focused on) the younger generation of Iranians do not have the same level of extreme beliefs.

There will always be morons that advocate genocide *cough*mikey*cough, but generally these morons usually only lead to building a case against it.

Who said anything about genocide? For christs sake..........

I said I wouldn't mind if Israel got bombed by Iran, or anyone for that matter.

Why? Because I don't care for how they have tried to wipe out the Palestinians over the years, thats it. They are not some innocent bystander here. OMG don't say anything bad about Israel just because the population is mostly jewish......I didnt bring that up now did I?

I am not an anti-semite. I dont have any experience with jews in my life at all. Quit jumping to conclusions.....moron.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Who said anything about genocide? For christs sake..........

I said I wouldn't mind if Israel got bombed by Iran, or anyone for that matter.

Why? Because I don't care for how they have tried to wipe out the Palestinians over the years, thats it. They are not some innocent bystander here. OMG don't say anything bad about Israel just because the population is mostly jewish......I didnt bring that up now did I?

I am not an anti-semite. I dont have any experience with jews in my life at all. Quit jumping to conclusions.....moron.

You don't care about 'who' trying to wipe out the Palestinians over the years? You certainly couldn't mean Israel, since there are very few Palestinian casualties, considering the status of the conflict. Just down the street in Iraq the casualties are numbering over 1 million.

If you actually looked up the statistics, Israel does a very good job of only trying to shoot the bad guys (who like to hide among the innocent).

But you wouldn't mention any of that, except you state that there is some wiping out of a nationality (I assume you mean Israel). That is a lie and is hateful.

So what do you think should qualify as an antisemite? You are making things up about Isreal in an online forum, how do you define that? Do you really feel you are telling the truth that there is some sort of ethnic cleansing going on in Israel?

I am asking these questions as a legitimate curiosity.