Residential Schools Apology

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

I kind of wonder what kind of horrible results they would come up with if they queried the quality of the mainstream religious-run churches up until the 1970s... I bet the results would not be as bad as this, but still truly disgusting.

As well, I wonder when we're going to apologize to interned Italian and German Canadians during WW2, as well as to immigrants from Europe and Asia who were forced to abandon their foreign citizenship when they entered the country, particularly in the 1950s. I'm sure there's other transgressions too.

Not to take away from this tragic episode, but if we're exorcising Canada's demons, we may as well account for all of them.

I'm sure we would if those affected by the other incidents made enough noise about it. I've never even heard of the Italian and German internments.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by Igottago

I'm sure we would if those affected by the other incidents made enough noise about it.

But then isn't that the matter of the squeaky wheel?

The government should be proactive about this BEFORE groups come out demanding an apology and a payout for actions of long deceased governments.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Igottago

I'm sure we would if those affected by the other incidents made enough noise about it. I've never even heard of the Italian and German internments.

Nor have I, I know that we had prisoner of war camps and put the prisoners to work doing farm harvesting and other things. but I don't remember interment of Germans and Italians.

[Boblobla]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Nor have I, I know that we had prisoner of war camps and put the prisoners to work doing farm harvesting and other things. but I don't remember interment of Germans and Italians.

That's because it doesn't sell newspapers.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Nor have I, I know that we had prisoner of war camps and put the prisoners to work doing farm harvesting and other things. but I don't remember interment of Germans and Italians.

It wasn't as full-blown as the Japanese or Ukranians... but there were many Italian and German Canadians held without cause in WW2, many of these people were sent with the POWs or to prisons. I think the CBC made a movie about one such family, not sure how based in fact it was, I never saw it.

However, in WW1 it was full-blown internment camps for Germans and Austro-Hungarians. Only the Ukranians have received notice, and it was pretty pathetic notice, nothing has been done since the recognition bill passed in 2005. That bill was not an apology, just how to recognize and "use" the experience for educational purposes.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

But then isn't that the matter of the squeaky wheel?

The government should be proactive about this BEFORE groups come out demanding an apology and a payout for actions of long deceased governments.

I suppose, but remember, the government will only react when people pressure it to do so. If native people didn't keep bringing up the problems in their community associated with the residential schools, then the Canadian government never would've apologized.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Boblobla

That's because it doesn't sell newspapers.

Why not? Why would the japanese internment sell more?

[MaDMaN_26]

Originally Posted by Boblobla

Actually, an oil company begged my dad to come over to Canada in the late 70s and they worked it all out. But thanks for being ignorant and assuming they took advantage of the system. The fact that you cannot try to make a point without resorting to foul language tells me the intellectual level you are talking at so I will use small words from now on.

Whatever, ok so your family didn't use those programs... ever been to the hospital? Just pick one of the hundreds of other benefits you and your family gain just by living here... use your imagination. I never once said "abused" either... Those programs are there to help and if they help an imigrating family becoming contributing members of this society - woot! I'm all for it but thanks for being ignorant and assuming that I had something against people using programs put in place to help them... I actually believe thats what they are there for. I was attempting to illustrate that ALL Canadians benifit just by living here and that often those benifits start immidiately.

Originally Posted by Boblobla

The way that you are talking about immigrants you come across as feeling you are not one. Are you an aboriginal? If not, then I have news for you, you are an immigrant as well.

Ya thanks, again I wasn't cutting down all immigrants... I know we are all from somewhere else originally. I was just cutting down you and your attitude about abstaining from an appology that Canada owed aboriginals for its actions as a nation in the past.

Originally Posted by Boblobla

Did I once say that I was not proud to be a Canadian? Did I say I was ashamed of my country? No, I merely said that I had issues with the wording of the apology. If you feel that it is necessary to get all bent out of shape because I don't think it was worded correctly that is your perogitive but your internet toughness doesn't impress me. I don't really understand what you are trying to get at here. All I really see is a 2 paragraph insult and if it makes you feel better then more power to you.

You didn't have to say that your ashamed or not proud to be Canadian... and I didn't say that you were, I said you were an embarrasment becuase you said:

Originally Posted by Boblobla

What am I supposed to think about? How I am a first generation Canadian and this has nothing to do with me?
***********
I heard that this was an apology on behalf of all Canadians. I have nothing to apologize for.

Try and rewrite it anyway you want now. Your post was made before the apology even took place at 1pm and you said NOTHING in your original post about the wording of an appology... maybe you said it later after you did a double take on your first insensitive and idiotic post, but I was responding to those statements not about how you've diluted your original statement in a political discussion about how the liberals and Conservatives should behave.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by Igottago

I suppose, but remember, the government will only react when people pressure it to do so. If native people didn't keep bringing up the problems in their community associated with the residential schools, then the Canadian government never would've apologized.

You're absolutely right... its very hypocritical, and that's what I'm getting at. We're sorry when we're caught and pressed hard enough, but if no one brings it up,or brings it up with enough intensity, we didn't do anything wrong and we're happy to look the other way.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

You're absolutely right... its very hypocritical, and that's what I'm getting at. We're sorry when we're caught and pressed hard enough, but if no one brings it up,or brings it up with enough intensity, we didn't do anything wrong and we're happy to look the other way.

I suppose at the same time, if the affected people aren't mad enough about it to press for an apology, is an apology necessary in the first place? Or, do we risk re-opening old wounds unnecessarily?

There is also a bit of pragmatism involved as well. As the financial settlements in cases like this show, if the government freely apologizes to any group that might have been wronged in the past, said group might begin to press for a financial package of their own.

Also on the pragmatic side, is the simple fact that government is accountable only to what will earn the most votes. Harper isn't apologizing because he's personally sorry for what happened, or because he feels it important to write a wrong. He's apologizing because it makes him and his party appear more sympathetic to the people. Just as Liberal volleys attempt to portray the opposite view of him/them.

TBQH, I find apologies such as these remarkably hollow for this very reason. I suggested above that all parties should have been apologizing, not just the party in power. The reason why this did not happen, and likely will never happen, is that there are no votes to gain if the opposition doesn't disassociate itself from the governing party.

[Boblobla]

Originally Posted by Boblobla

I heard that this was an apology on behalf of all Canadians. I have nothing to apologize for. It is a terrible shame what happened to these kids but all the political BS surrounding this is garbage.

Originally Posted by MaDMaN_26

Try and rewrite it anyway you want now. Your post was made before the apology even took place at 1pm and you said NOTHING in your original post about the wording of an appology... maybe you said it later after you did a double take on your first insensitive and idiotic post, but I was responding to those statements not about how you've diluted your original statement in a political discussion baout how the liberals and Conservatives should behave.

Heh, that was my original post that contained my issues with the wording. There has been some discussion here that has given some great reasons why it was on behalf of all Canadians and some of it I can agree with. It is really sad that this stuff happened to these kids starting 130 years ago, I never said that it wasn't. Do I care about the apology? Not really. Does that make me insensitive? Probably. Idiotic? I don't really think so, but hey, each to their own.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Boblobla

That's because it doesn't sell newspapers.

Yes, because the entire country is fixated on Native issues and don't care about anything to do with Europeans and the Native-centric media panders to that.

[Boblobla]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Yes, because the entire country is fixated on Native issues and don't care about anything to do with Europeans and the Native-centric media panders to that.

Fixed.

I was just being cynical. Sorry if that offends you Rouge :P

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

TBQH, I find apologies such as these remarkably hollow for this very reason. I suggested above that all parties should have been apologizing, not just the party in power. The reason why this did not happen, and likely will never happen, is that there are no votes to gain if the opposition doesn't disassociate itself from the governing party.

That's a really good point. It makes the apology less significant than the politicking going on around it. Sadly, it may also be the case for some of the native people lobbying for the apology. They may be jockeying for position within their own tribes or community councils, and getting the apology makes them look good.

[Boblobla]

Originally Posted by Igottago

That's a really good point. It makes the apology less significant than the politicking going on around it. Sadly, it may also be the case for some of the native people lobbying for the apology. They may be jockeying for position within their own tribes or community councils, and getting the apology makes them look good.

And that is why I want no part of it.

The political BS makes it less of an apology and more of a publicity stunt which is a pretty weak way of bringing such a tragedy to light imo.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by Igottago

That's a really good point. It makes the apology less significant than the politicking going on around it. Sadly, it may also be the case for some of the native people lobbying for the apology. They may be jockeying for position within their own tribes or community councils, and getting the apology makes them look good.

That's most of why I hate these public apologies. We're sorry because we got caught, got pressured, and found a way to politically spin this to make us look nice with an election looming in the next 12 months.

I also find the whole apologizing for past generations a little comical and hollow in and of itself. "I'm sorry for something I was not alive for, and am only superficially aware of. As leader of a nation that bears little resemblance to the one that wronged people who may or may not be even alive to hear this apology, I offer my most heartfelt apology and stoic look I can muster from drama class..." is all they ever sound like to me and probably to the people they are apologizing to.

Yes, there's shared history, and yes there's something to say about acknowledgment, but its not like saying sorry and dishing out a few million is going to make the pain go away or allow some mystical white-out to erase the incident from the books. It happened, it was bad, it was ended by a wiser generation, acknowledgment was made for the sins of the fathers (literally and hypothetically)... a politically convenient photo-op apology isn't going to change anything... I doubt the hate will simply vanish. The First Nations are not simply going to say, "alright, apology accepted. Lets move on." More concrete actions and difficult decisions are needed, not superficialities.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

TBQH, I find apologies such as these remarkably hollow for this very reason. I suggested above that all parties should have been apologizing, not just the party in power. The reason why this did not happen, and likely will never happen, is that there are no votes to gain if the opposition doesn't disassociate itself from the governing party.

Far as I know, all parties did apologize. The Liberals were second and specifically named the Liberal party as being complicit in this scandal because they were in power something like 70 of the last 100 years. But it was Dion talking and I just had to turn the TV off. I think the CBC guy said 'the Bloc will speak next, followed by words from the NDP'.

In the pre-amble, Harper specifically thanked "the leader of the NDP" for helping him put it all together.

I didn't pay attention to what went on before but the apology/speech itself didn't stink of politicking on anyone's part.

[Boblobla]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Far as I know, all parties did apologize. The Liberals were second and specifically named the Liberal party as being complicit in this scandal because they were in power something like 70 of the last 100 years. But it was Dion talking and I just had to turn the TV off. I think the CBC guy said 'the Bloc will speak next, followed by words from the NDP'.

In the pre-amble, Harper specifically thanked "the leader of the NDP" for helping him put it all together.

I didn't pay attention to what went on before but the apology/speech itself didn't stink of politicking on anyone's part.

That is good to see. From the lame little comments that were coming to light on Tuesday in the House I thought it was going to be somewhat of a spectacle. Glad to see that they can put partisan feelings aside for something like this.

[Boblobla]

Sigh, it looks like the Bloq took the opportunity to further their political cause:

"Despite Harper's advice earlier this week to avoid playing politics with such a serious issue, Bloc Quebecois Leader Gilles Duceppe used much of his time at the microphone to blast the Conservative government for failing to back up its apology with concrete action. "This apology is necessary but insufficient," he said, noting Canada's position as one of only four countries that failed to sign the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. "Apologies, once given, are only meaningful for the action that follows."
Duceppe pressed the government to better fund native communities or risk repeating the actions of the past by further damaging aboriginal culture. He ended his speech to thunderous applause in the House, from his own party as well as the survivors who packed the observation gallery."

[MaDMaN_26]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

That's most of why I hate these public apologies. We're sorry because we got caught, got pressured, and found a way to politically spin this to make us look nice with an election looming in the next 12 months.

I also find the whole apologizing for past generations a little comical and hollow in and of itself. "I'm sorry for something I was not alive for, and am only superficially aware of. As leader of a nation that bears little resemblance to the one that wronged people who may or may not be even alive to hear this apology, I offer my most heartfelt apology and stoic look I can muster from drama class..." is all they ever sound like to me and probably to the people they are apologizing to.

Yes, there's shared history, and yes there's something to say about acknowledgment, but its not like saying sorry and dishing out a few million is going to make the pain go away or allow some mystical white-out to erase the incident from the books. It happened, it was bad, it was ended by a wiser generation, acknowledgment was made for the sins of the fathers (literally and hypothetically)... a politically convenient photo-op apology isn't going to change anything... I doubt the hate will simply vanish. The First Nations are not simply going to say, "alright, apology accepted. Lets move on." More concrete actions and difficult decisions are needed, not superficialities.

While I do understand what your saying I cant agree with it... I think these acknowledgements/appologies do mean something to the victims. I think the least we can do considering it doesnt affect us either way is silently or vocally support the movement, second guessing the motivation behind it cheapens it more than it already is by its nature...

I have never had an experience that a nation needed to appologize to me for... but ask a Polish person what it meant to them when Russia finally admitted in 1990ish that they not Hitler's Germany executed 22,000 poles during the 2nd world war, something everyone knew but they would not admit... A pole friend of mine had teary eyes when he told me the story... so hollow as it may have been for Russia to admit it, I guess it meant something to him.

I think the sincerity and meaning of the appology is up to the victims to decide....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/908253.stm