Hugo Chavez calls Bush "The Devil"

[FlamingLonghorn]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

Two things about this:

1. "Researching" your doctor is a privilege that the U.S. system affords to the wealthy. If you're poor, you can only access urgent care. If you're middle-class, odds are good you're in an HMO--which means that your insurance company chooses your doctor for you. Not to mention that if you live in a rural area you really don't have any choices.
2. "top 10 in the world"? I'd like to see some metrics and data on that. I do know that outcomes in cardiac care are substantially better in Canada and Europe. Other than that, I don't know. My guess is you don't either--but if you do have access to some facts about this, I'd be interested in taking a look at them.

I've experienced both health care systems. Canada's isn't perfect--far from it, in fact. But the U.S. health care system runs like it was invented by monkeys. It is literally the worst imaginable system, regardless of how good the care offered to wealthy urbanites is.

Trust me I live in the US and have no health coverage I know it is a problem. However, when the quality of coverage is compared to non developed countries I am smart enough to know which is better. Btw, of the 5 countries covered in this study Canada got the worst score in heart attack recovery rates not the US... Where is your evidence to back up your claim?
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0505/p02s01-uspo.html

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

Two things about this:

1. "Researching" your doctor is a privilege that the U.S. system affords to the wealthy. If you're poor, you can only access urgent care. If you're middle-class, odds are good you're in an HMO--which means that your insurance company chooses your doctor for you. Not to mention that if you live in a rural area you really don't have any choices.
2. "top 10 in the world"? I'd like to see some metrics and data on that. I do know that outcomes in cardiac care are substantially better in Canada and Europe. Other than that, I don't know. My guess is you don't either--but if you do have access to some facts about this, I'd be interested in taking a look at them.

I've experienced both health care systems. Canada's isn't perfect--far from it, in fact. But the U.S. health care system runs like it was invented by monkeys. It is literally the worst imaginable system, regardless of how good the care offered to wealthy urbanites is.

Do you think Venezuela has a better system than USA?

Everyone always says how good Canada's system is and how poor the US system is. I haven't experienced the US system so I can't say from experience. But I do have a friend that applied to 3 universities in Canada for Med School. Low 90's marks. Could not get into any of the Canadian schools. He applied to 4 US schools and was accepted to three. Now he lives in Windsor and works in Detroit. He claims that there is not a big difference as far as access to healthcare between Canada and the US.

He says the biggest difference is poor people can't access really expensive treatments for such things as cancer. He says wait times are way lower in the USA than in Canada.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Interesting website. Not sure how correct all the facts are but they do post the sources.

http://www.unitednorthamerica.org/home.htm

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

Two things about this:

1. "Researching" your doctor is a privilege that the U.S. system affords to the wealthy. If you're poor, you can only access urgent care. If you're middle-class, odds are good you're in an HMO--which means that your insurance company chooses your doctor for you. Not to mention that if you live in a rural area you really don't have any choices.
2. "top 10 in the world"? I'd like to see some metrics and data on that. I do know that outcomes in cardiac care are substantially better in Canada and Europe. Other than that, I don't know. My guess is you don't either--but if you do have access to some facts about this, I'd be interested in taking a look at them.

I've experienced both health care systems. Canada's isn't perfect--far from it, in fact. But the U.S. health care system runs like it was invented by monkeys. It is literally the worst imaginable system, regardless of how good the care offered to wealthy urbanites is.

Here is another site that compares the two countries. Like I said to Lanny, whats the point of having universal healthcare when it's so backlogged that no one can really access it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadia...stems_compared

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Here is another site that compares the two countries. Like I said to Lanny, whats the point of having universal healthcare when it's so backlogged that no one can really access it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadia...stems_compared

The wait time issue is a red herring. In Canada I never had a problem getting an poointment to see my doctor (GP) and could make an appointment in 48 hours, unless she was on vacation, which meant I had to see one of her partners and that lead to a wait time. In the US I have an assigned doctor through my PPO (if I don't want to pay for the visit myself, ehich wouldn't make sense since I'm paying over $12K in insurance to begin with) and have to make an appointment a week out, no matter what the issue is. Going to urgent care (walk in clinics) guarantees you at least a 12 hour wait. Of course I live in a city with a population three to four times what metro Calgary is, and people go to the doctor here for farting backwards, so the system is naturally busier. But when I have to wait four months to see a specialist I don't see any advantage to the US system, especially when I pay those huge premiums. Supposedly when you put the big dollars up, and $12K+ is a lot of money IMO, you should have better access than several months wait to see a doctor. The whole waiting issue is a red herring tossed out there by people who have not used the systems.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Sowa

Trust me I live in the US and have no health coverage I know it is a problem. However, when the quality of coverage is compared to non developed countries I am smart enough to know which is better. Btw, of the 5 countries covered in this study Canada got the worst score in heart attack recovery rates not the US... Where is your evidence to back up your claim?
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0505/p02s01-uspo.html

I don't think that article says what you think it does. What it actually says is that according to specific care benchmarks, the 5 countries were each good at different things. Canada had the best outcomes in Childhood Leukemia--something you fail to mention.

Here's the gist of the article:

Americans spend twice as much on healthcare as other countries, but it turns out that they're not getting twice the quality for the price when they go to the doctor or hospital.

The researchers of this study, in case there was any doubt, quickly identifies who the real goat here is:

But researchers concluded that it was the Americans who should take particular note of the findings.
"The US should be particularly concerned about these findings," says Gerard Anderson, director of the Bloomberg School of Public Health at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore. "If I'm spending twice as much, I'd expect to have the better outcomes."
But it turns out, the US was in the middle of the pack for the majority of health issues that were compared.

So to sum up: the U.S. system is expensive, and on average has worse outcomes than other developed countries with universal health care. And that's just for people who have access to the system. Obviously the working poor, people in rural areas, homeless people, etc. many of whom only have access to urgent care, the outcomes will be far, far worse. How is this different from what I said, exactly?

I live in the U.S. too, and I'm in an HMO. What this means is that I can't research my doctor, or choose who I want to see for primary care--something I had more freedom to do in Canada. My experience (I have some experience with chronic illness in my family, so I know whereof I speak) is that in addition to being less expensive, health care in Canada is better, more flexible and FASTER by a long shot, even for elective procedures. Yes, FASTER. The whole waiting-list thing is SUCH a red herring. There are as many waiting lists for expensive procedures here as there are in Canada. That's a question of access, not outcomes--and I think everyone agrees that access is vastly poorer in the U.S.

Jolinar: I know literally nothing about Venezuela's health care system, so I can't comment on whether it's worse. What I can tell you is that here in the U.S. it's like a system run by monkeys. In fact, monkeys might do a better job. It's inefficient, expensive and generally of poor quality. What's more, Sowa's study that he posted, far from disproving this, actually substantiates that claim.

[FlamingLonghorn]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

I don't think that article says what you think it does. What it actually says is that according to specific care benchmarks, the 5 countries were each good at different things. Canada had the best outcomes in Childhood Leukemia--something you fail to mention.

Here's the gist of the article:


The researchers of this study, in case there was any doubt, quickly identifies who the real goat here is:

So to sum up: the U.S. system is expensive, and on average has worse outcomes than other developed countries with universal health care. And that's just for people who have access to the system. Obviously the working poor, people in rural areas, homeless people, etc. many of whom only have access to urgent care, the outcomes will be far, far worse. How is this different from what I said, exactly?

I live in the U.S. too, and I'm in an HMO. What this means is that I can't research my doctor, or choose who I want to see for primary care--something I had more freedom to do in Canada. My experience (I have some experience with chronic illness in my family, so I know whereof I speak) is that in addition to being less expensive, health care in Canada is better, more flexible and FASTER by a long shot, even for elective procedures. Yes, FASTER. The whole waiting-list thing is SUCH a red herring. There are as many waiting lists for expensive procedures here as there are in Canada. That's a question of access, not outcomes--and I think everyone agrees that access is vastly poorer in the U.S.

Jolinar: I know literally nothing about Venezuela's health care system, so I can't comment on whether it's worse. What I can tell you is that here in the U.S. it's like a system run by monkeys. In fact, monkeys might do a better job. It's inefficient, expensive and generally of poor quality. What's more, Sowa's study that he posted, far from disproving this, actually substantiates that claim.

I don't think you understand my argument. I never said the US is better than the rest of the world I just said it was one of the tops it terms of service to those who have access to it. The WHO rates US like 15-16th, but that takes into account lack of coverage. I was just saying the service is better than Venezuela a nondeveloped country. Canada might very well have a better healthcare system than us. Although not it cardiac medicine which I guess you ceded that arguments victory to me.
The gist of my argument is if you are diagnosed with a potentially lethal disease (say cancer) which hospital would you pick one in Venezuela or MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston or Sloan Kettering in NY? It's a no brainer...

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Sowa

I don't think you understand my argument. I never said the US is better than the rest of the world I just said it was one of the tops it terms of service to those who have access to it. The WHO rates US like 15-16th, but that takes into account lack of coverage. I was just saying the service is better than Venezuela a nondeveloped country. Canada might very well have a better healthcare system than us. Although not it cardiac medicine which I guess you ceded that arguments victory to me.
The gist of my argument is if you are diagnosed with a potentially lethal disease (say cancer) which hospital would you pick one in Venezuela or MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston or Sloan Kettering in NY? It's a no brainer...

Fair enough. As I said, I have no idea what Venezuela's system is like. What I will tell you is that I'd rather be sick in any other developed country than the U.S. Throw in the fact that the U.S. system is twice as expensive as that of any other developed country.... let's just say the picture isn't pretty.

I also think you can't look at the healthcare system without considering the question of access. To me, that's one of the most crucial benchmarks.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Sowa

I don't think you understand my argument. I never said the US is better than the rest of the world I just said it was one of the tops it terms of service to those who have access to it. The WHO rates US like 15-16th, but that takes into account lack of coverage. I was just saying the service is better than Venezuela a nondeveloped country. Canada might very well have a better healthcare system than us. Although not it cardiac medicine which I guess you ceded that arguments victory to me.

I used to have the same uneducated opinion too. I used to think that all of latin America was living in the 1950's. Come on, how could anything compare to the tecnological marvels available to us here in America and Canada??? You'd be surprised what is available in other parts of the world. Cuba has a very good healthcare system. Belize and Costa Rica are both excellent. Of course we don't hear this, because it doesn't fit with the information being hammered at us by corporate America. You think for a second that the AMA wants people to know they can get better healthcare for less? Not a chance in hell. For that reason we get the same old "we're number one" bull**** drilled into us.

The gist of my argument is if you are diagnosed with a potentially lethal disease (say cancer) which hospital would you pick one in Venezuela or MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston or Sloan Kettering in NY? It's a no brainer...

Frankly, I will go where I can get treatment. Since I doubt my insurance company would pay for treatment at either of the hospitals you suggest going there is a fantasy. I will go where ever I can to get treatment. Something tells me you would do the same. The only question I have is, will I get the treatment available through the approved providers, or will I die waiting?

[Red Mile Style]

Originally Posted by Kobatuzzied

Don't see the big deal. All Chavez is doing is speaking aloud what 49.9% of the American people and all of Canada think about Bush.

Now watch this shot! hehe

That's awesome!

[jolinar of malkshor]

All I am saying is that no system is perfect, and the biggest beef I had was Lanny saying that Venezuela's system was superior to that of the USA.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Red Mile Style

That's awesome!

Yeah, it sure is awesome the Chavez makes himself look like an idiot.

[drp_69]

This thread/topic has been derailed with arguments of which or whose health care system is better.I will discuss that later but......
- I think that Chavezs' comments are really in poor taste, lack class, finesse, manners and style. Those statements are 'uncool', and rude.
- Many of us dont like Bush, and his policies, but for goodness sake, where are your manners Chavez?

Who on this forum believes that a prominent US citizen would get away with making equally crass public statements about the Venezuelan leader in Venezuela. I dont think it would happen, without some kind of violent reaction, or riot prehaps.

Lanny's comments about the Venezuelan health care system being superior to the US....... oh please! I would rather have a heart attack, be in a MVA or require neuro-surgery in the US then in Venezuela ANY DAY.
When one makes health care comparissons it depends with respect to WHAT. Primary health care, complicated health care, first world health care, or costs? One cannot just say that x country is better then y country.
Whats with Lanny any way. If you disagree you are labelled 'stupid' or an 'idiot', why the names? Is that Avatar of his meant to depict King God or something?

[MJK]

Originally Posted by Deelow

So is he paying for the Greyhound tickets to Fort McMurray?

Do some research instead of posting random babble. You obviously have no idea either.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

All I am saying is that no system is perfect, and the biggest beef I had was Lanny saying that Venezuela's system was superior to that of the USA.

So, if you're hungry which is better? Being able to stand in line at some swanky restaurant for three hours in hopes that you can get a great meal (so you've heard anyways) only to be turned away at the door because you don't have a jacket and tie, or being able to walk into lesser establishment, get seated immediately and get a good meal that fills your belly?

Every citizen in Venezuela has access to healthcare and competant doctors. There are 40 million Americans who do not have insurance and cannot access the healthcare system. That is 13 million more than the population of Venezuela. Having guaranteed access to healthcare is a helluva lot better than having access to nothing.

Originally Posted by drp_69

This thread/topic has been derailed with arguments of which or whose health care system is better.I will discuss that later but......
- I think that Chavezs' comments are really in poor taste, lack class, finesse, manners and style. Those statements are 'uncool', and rude.
- Many of us dont like Bush, and his policies, but for goodness sake, where are your manners Chavez?

Yes, I guess Chaves should have instead spoke to the "Axis of Evil" and mentioned the "evil doers" and let the United Nations know that he is doing "God''s work" and that "God is directing him" and that the nations of the world are either "with the America or with the terrorists".

(As Reza Aslan increduously said after hearing that last jewel, "we sure as hell aren't with you [Bush] so... ???")

I love how one guy can spew all of the retoric and hyperbole he wants, while lying his ass off, and gets away with it, but someone pokes fun at that and he gets demonized. Too bad no one bothered to read the text of the speech. He made some really good points. But don't bother worrying about context, just worry about that 30 second sound bite that keeps us westerners so informed.

Who on this forum believes that a prominent US citizen would get away with making equally crass public statements about the Venezuelan leader in Venezuela. I dont think it would happen, without some kind of violent reaction, or riot prehaps.

Chavez was technically not in America, he was at the UN, which is international land. Also, American presidents have routinely bashed leaders of other countries from the same pulpit, so your point is moot. And you want to talk about violent acts? The CIA has already tried (unsuccessfully) to whack Chavez in his own country. They also restricted his security detail to the plane while Chavez spoke at the UN. Seems to me that Chavez displayed a helluva set of balls to make the speech he did unprotected. Bush can't take a crap without having someone test the toilet paper for surface poisons first.

Lanny's comments about the Venezuelan health care system being superior to the US....... oh please! I would rather have a heart attack, be in a MVA or require neuro-surgery in the US then in Venezuela ANY DAY.

You would, would you. Pretty easy to say for someone living in Canada who has ZERO idea of either system. You'd love the US system. You'd have your heart attack, end up in the hospital, be released four days later, and then get a bill for $45K (one of my co-workers when through this exact scenario about eight months ago). You'd immediately have another heart attack from seeing the bill and drop dead. Yup, it's a great system. Any system that can put you into bankruptcy because you get sick is not only broken, but useless. The idea of healthcare is to preserve life. That includes quality of life.

When one makes health care comparissons it depends with respect to WHAT. Primary health care, complicated health care, first world health care, or costs? One cannot just say that x country is better then y country.

General healthcare. You know, the things that we would normally require in our every day lives. Canadians don't realize how good they have it when they can walk into a clinic and not have to worry about shelling out a crap load of money out of their pocket. I had to take my wife to see someone out of our network a couple weeks ago because her back was killing her. It cost us $125 just to walk in the door and then another $70 in prescription meds. She saw the "doctor" for less than two minutes, yet he was able to make a diagnosis on the spot like that. Yup, great system.

Whats with Lanny any way. If you disagree you are labelled 'stupid' or an 'idiot', why the names? Is that Avatar of his meant to depict King God or something?

Oh my God, now my avatar is going to create controversy??? Azure's avatar has two guys with guns! That means he's a thug with a possey that's going to kill anyone that comes near him!!! RUN FOR YOUR ****ING LIVES!!!! It's a freakin' graphic from one of my favorite movies and one I use with another online handle. I also have one that I used during the playoffs with the Stanley Cup in it (does that make the Stanley Cup the actual Holy Grail now becauise it showed up in my avatar???) so does that have some hidden meaning too??? Yes, hard to believe that I would actually label someone a moron or an idiot (both clinical terms for someone with an IQ under 75 and 50 respectively IIRC, btw) for their thought processes.

[Table 5]

i just spent 3 months researching and trying to get health insurance. in the end, all i realized was this country is a frickin joke when it comes to medical care. there are so many added fees and loopholes its nuts.

the only reason i even got it was i was scared as hell id get hit by a car or something and end up with a 50k bill (or have my appendix burts and require 30k surgery, much like my friend did). I dont even care abou the little stuf anymore....I just wait till i go back to Canada to do all that. Eye care, dentistry, dermatology? forget it, I wouldnt even trust them here.

A friend of mine went to a doctor as he'd been complaining of headaches for months. The doctors here brushed him off, told him it was just migraines and sent him home with Tylenol. When he went back to Turkey thi smmer, he went to a doctor there, who immediately sent him to get an MRI which revealed a tumor in his head. If he would have stayed here, he would have likely been dead....but going to a supposedly "lesser" country like Turkey saved his life because they actually gave him access to the things that he needed. Maybe the doctors dont have fancy degrees from Harvard, but atleast they have common sense.

[drp_69]

"Chavez was technically not in America, he was at the UN, which is international land."

What about the comment made in Harlem about Bush being an alcoholic and a "sick man". Not on international soil. I still think, no matter what you say, or glorify anything anti-US, his comments, or "sound bites" as you call them, are rude. Yes, I did read the text of whole UN speach, but sadly he blew it by making such silly opening comments.
http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/...-chavez22.html

"You would, would you. Pretty easy to say for someone living in Canada who has ZERO idea of either system."

Realistically yes. Dont make broad assumptions about what I know or where I've travelled to, with out knowing anything about me. If you'd prefer to have an MI or some complicated neuro-surgery in Venezuela.....I cant change that, go ahead. I am afraid your view of Venezuela's health care system is rather idealised.



"Oh my God, now my avatar is going to create controversy???"

It was an aside tongue in cheek comment designed to raise you ire. It does look a king god or something. Is it from a Monty Python movie?


" Yes, hard to believe that I would actually label someone a moron or an idiot (both clinical terms for someone with an IQ under 75 and 50 respectively IIRC, btw) for their thought processes."


So you now know some-ones IQ just by what they post, or if they agree or disagree with you?

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Azure

For the office he holds, yes.

Does that mean they shouldn't be able to use military force against him? No, of course not.

The U.S didnt even have the respect to call him by his last name. Contrary to popular belief, Saddam is not his full name. As much as as I hate Hussein, that sort of irked me, as its something the U.S does quite often. They purposefully always try to demean everyone in little ways like this, which might work at home, but only ensures more hatred abroad.

It would sort of be like if you were watching the evening news, and Peter Mansbridge started telling you what "Stephen" did today.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Table 5

The U.S didnt even have the respect to call him by his last name. Contrary to popular belief, Saddam is not his full name. As much as as I hate Hussein, that sort of irked me, as its something the U.S does quite often. They purposefully always try to demean everyone in little ways like this, which might work at home, but only ensures more hatred abroad.

It would sort of be like if you were watching the evening news, and Peter Mansbridge started telling you what "Stephen" did today.

Exactly.

I'm not saying the US has a great track record either, in regards to respecting foreign leaders, but neither is the track record of the US in regards to this the subject of this discussion.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Table 5

i just spent 3 months researching and trying to get health insurance. in the end, all i realized was this country is a frickin joke when it comes to medical care. there are so many added fees and loopholes its nuts.

the only reason i even got it was i was scared as hell id get hit by a car or something and end up with a 50k bill (or have my appendix burts and require 30k surgery, much like my friend did). I dont even care abou the little stuf anymore....I just wait till i go back to Canada to do all that. Eye care, dentistry, dermatology? forget it, I wouldnt even trust them here.

A friend of mine went to a doctor as he'd been complaining of headaches for months. The doctors here brushed him off, told him it was just migraines and sent him home with Tylenol. When he went back to Turkey thi smmer, he went to a doctor there, who immediately sent him to get an MRI which revealed a tumor in his head. If he would have stayed here, he would have likely been dead....but going to a supposedly "lesser" country like Turkey saved his life because they actually gave him access to the things that he needed. Maybe the doctors dont have fancy degrees from Harvard, but atleast they have common sense.

These problems happen in EVERY system. And to say it doesn't is BS