Cop consults psychic to hear murder victim talk

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by photon

I can and do make the claim, as do many others. The burden of proof is on you to provide evidence otherwise. I'm still waiting.

Not really. It can't be 100% proven either way, so it's up to you to believe what you want. There's always going to be enough disconfirming evidence to dispute psychics being true. Even if I went to a psychic who told me 100 things that were exactly true and nothing false, you could still point out some scam artist psychic to disprove it.
I agree there isn't any concrete evidence that psychic abilities exist, but no concrete evidence does not equate to no truth.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Not really. It can't be 100% proven either way, so it's up to you to believe what you want. There's always going to be enough disconfirming evidence to dispute psychics being true. Even if I went to a psychic who told me 100 things that were exactly true and nothing false, you could still point out some scam artist psychic to disprove it.
I agree there isn't any concrete evidence that psychic abilities exist, but no concrete evidence does not equate to no truth.

Well it can be proven 100% in one direction. Psychics and law enforcement could participate in a study to determine the ability of psychics to contribute to investigations, and if that study showed positive then that would be proof. Or a psychic could submit to the $1 million challenge and prove their ability. However those studies have been done (with law enforcement and psychics) and the psychics fared no better than random chance. And no one has taken the challenge.

But you are right, you cannot prove 100% that psychics are all false; well you could I guess but all psychics throughout history would have to be tested to prove that. And I would not claim that one scam psychic means all psychics are false; that's flawed reasoning. However that's not the claim being made.

The claim is there is evidence that psychics are used successfully to resolve police investigations. Without intimate knowledge of every criminal investigation everywhere througout history it is impossible to prove that it has not happened; that the claim is false. However it doesn't need to be proven that it hasn't happened; that's not the claim. The claim is it does happen, so the proof must be that it does happen. But there is no proof. And without proof, the claim doesn't stand. If proof was brought forward, that's great! Science is about a constant new understanding of reality.

It doesn't require proving a negative; it does't require proving psychics are all false. It only requires one proof of one that is true. But that hasn't happened. The Society for Psychical Research was established in 1882 to promote and support research in paranormal or psychic abilities. Since then we've moved from the first communications in morse code to cell phones in every pocket, people communicating globally instantly, lifespans extended significanlty, etc etc.. none of those things require your belief; they work whether you believe them or not. Shouldn't there be a similar proof and development unambiguously real and useful psi applications? In 124 years of research? But there isn't.

[photon]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

If you read the rest of my post you would understand who that statement fits in. Seems to me you try to win your arguement by being a reporter and only reporting half the facts to try and suite your own position.

You said I could not prove you had a headache. Why not? The body isn't a magic sealed box. A headache is a physiological condition right? Depending on what kind of headache it was there would be evidence in the body; in the blood chemistry, blood pressure, etc etc.. Or studies could be done to monitor behaviour to factor out if a person is lying or not. Or CAT scans showing brain activity in the pain receptors; I don't know I'm sure a real medical type person could give more info.

But I don't understand how your statement fits into the discussion. What "half of the facts" am I leaving out? I am open to anything you provide. I'm not trying to "win" an argument. I'm trying to say that until evidence that it is useful is provided, the use of psychics by law enforcement is a waste of resources, provides false hope to victims, sullies the memories of lost ones, and shouldn't be done.

[jolinar of malkshor]

A lot of these police officers felt that a psychic was a useful tool.

5. Has your department used psychics in past investigations?
Responses: Yes-61 (23%); No-106 (40.5%); Unknown-96 (36.5%).

6. How many times has your department used a psychic? If unsure, please estimate.
Responses: One Time-30; Two Times-18; Three Times-8; Four Times-3; Five Times-4.

7. What types of cases were the psychics involved in?
Responses: Homicide 45 (52%)
Missing Person 35 (40.5%)
Kidnapping 2 (2.5%)
Other 4 (5%)**

8. How did the psychic get involved in the case?
Responses: Called in by officer 31 (41%)
Called in by Family 15 (20%)
Volunteered self 26 (34%)
Unknown 4 (5%)***

9. Was any of the information given by the psychic useful in solving the investigation?
Responses: Yes-9 (13.5%);**** No-33 (50%); Maybe-24 (36.5%).

10. Would the case have been solved without the assistance of the psychic?
Responses: Yes-33 (51%); No-0 (0%); Unknown-32 (49%).


* The choice "Maybe" was not included on the questionnaire, but was written in by four officers.

** Of the four questionnaires marked "Other," two were marked as arson, and the remaining two had no written
explanation.

*** The choice "Unknown" was not included on the
questionnaire, but was written in by four officers.

**** Of the nine questionnaires marked "Yes," four did not give any written explanations. The remaining five were
explained as follows:

+ "Location of body".
+ "Area where crime was committed".
+ "The Victims social behavior, I believe his girlfriend background".
+ "Remembering license number and vehicle color".
+ "Identified area where the patient was located".

http://pac-c.org/police%20&%20psychics.htm

But I suppose you are smarter than them and you have more expertise than them aswell.

[photon]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

A lot of these police officers felt that a psychic was a useful tool.
...
But I suppose you are smarter than them and you have more expertise than them aswell.

A poll of how police officers "feel" is not proof; it's simply how they feel. Feelings are easily manipulated, and people (all people including myself) are easily fooled. Look into some of the terms troutman brought up (subjective validation, selective thinking and confirmation bias). Those are real proven things.

From the poll you linked:

For more than eight years, I have researched this topic vigorously, actively seeking every bit of information available. I have collected volumes of news clippings, many hours of videotape, books, case histories and research statistics, and I have yet to find any hard evidence that any psychic has ever helped the police solve a crime.

I doubt I'm smarter than the average person, and I have no expertise in crime investigations. I am just someone who doesn't believe in psychics, Santa, the tooth fairy, and other things which have no proof. And it seems the detective who did the poll you linked agrees with me.

And if you can't discuss things without being confrontational, don't.

I 'feel' this thread is giving me a headache.... wait, feelings are not proof, but a headache can be proven.. errr.... wait, photon said he can prove I have a headache and thus, he can prove how I am feeling??? I am so confused.

[photon]

[firebug]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

What if the murder investigation of your loved one was in its 18 month? And police have told you that although the case would remain active, they are no longer actively investigating it? Would you condone the use of a psychic then? Police investigations can be VERY frustrating... sometimes the use of 'other resources' is all thats left.

I'll bite,

My neice was murdered last May (2005) in Ft. Mac. So far no-one has been charged with her death.

No family members have requested psychic assistance in the investigation. I know that I would not be impressed if the investigators told me that they have, or will be, attempting to utilize a psychic.

I don't see this thread saying that psychic abilities could not exist, rather that there is no proof that they do exist (however the inability to prove that something exists really means that it must not exist).

~bug

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by firebug

I'll bite,

My neice was murdered last May (2005) in Ft. Mac. So far no-one has been charged with her death.

No family members have requested psychic assistance in the investigation. I know that I would not be impressed if the investigators told me that they have, or will be, attempting to utilize a psychic.

I don't see this thread saying that psychic abilities could not exist, rather that there is no proof that they do exist (however the inability to prove that something exists really means that it must not exist).

~bug

So instead of the investigator trying to be proactive, you would rather stick with old fashion police work rather than maybe obtaining clues from this other option.

Like I have said, I really don't beieve in this stuff but me personally, I would do WHATEVER I could to find the killer of a loved one.

[photon]

That I agree with, I'd want the investigators to do whatever they could as well.. but I'd want them to be spending their time on things that have been proven over time to be effective investigation techniques.

I mean they could open the phone book, start with 'A', and phone everyone asking if they know anything too, but that wouldn't be very effective.

[troutman]

Jolinar, that survey is certainly interesting, but it does not prove your point one way or the other. Many people think that astrology is a useful tool too, but that does not make it so. Many people believe aliens are abducting humans, and that sasquatch exists. Belief is not proof.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by troutman

Jolinar, that survey is certainly interesting, but it does not prove your point one way or the other. Many people think that astrology is a useful tool too, but that does not make it so. Many people believe aliens are abducting humans, and that sasquatch exists. Belief is not proof.

I am really not trying to prove anything. My point is there is no hurt in trying something new. Many of those officers polled felt that the info obtained was useful. Thats all that counts. Usually no one piece of evidents solves a crime.