History of Flames Transition (Rebuild/Retool) Periods

[cannon7]

Originally Posted by Mickey76

The Savard trade you are of course correct, but I disagree with St. Louis. He was just not seen as a good player. He was left unprotected and no team picked him up. I view him as one the great career turnarounds. Still can’t believe how good he became:

Correct about St. Louis. He got a lot stronger after his stint with the Flames. If you watch any games of him as a Flame, he was badly outmatched physically. You could tell he had skill, but was knocked off the puck easily and just looked like one of those skill guys who's game didn't translate to the NHL.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by #-3

I'll also say, the last rebuild was probably a lot closer than a lot of us think, there is a world where Monahan and Bennett are a little healthier, Fox doesn't push his way out, and a couple guys don't end up on personal leave for very different reasons.

This could have been a pretty consistent 105+ point team every year from 2019-2027.

Gaudreau-Linholm-Tkatchuk
Mangiapane-Monahan-Bennett
Coleman-Backlund-Dube

Fox-Andersson
Haniffin-Tanev
Kylington

Markstrom

I agree with this, it could have been a contended for years. How difficult would it be to recreate?

• Gaudreau was a complete homerun of an outlier. Unlikely to be repeated, more likely need to draft in single digits to get his type if skill
• Tkatchuk was a high pick and would probably go higher
• Bennett would have been a typical top 4
• Monahan was a really good single-digit pick
• Fox was an unbelievable steal as a second rounder. Likely need a single-digit pick to replace him
• Lindhom at his best lived to his high draft pick

So right there we have what would normally need 6 high picks to get. The Flames scored on the Gaudreau and Fox picks, and the second Hamilton trade.

• Hanifin I don't think would need to be a top pick to replace. mid-first or really good second
• Andersson was an outstanding second, should probably be a 1st

So a couple of stud D's with mid-1st picks

1. Backlund was a solid pick who has had a nice career
2. Dube could have beem another Backlund
3. Mangiapane was a huge surprise as a 6th rounder but could be replaced with a good 2nd or 3rd rounder typically

Nothing out of the ordinary required, just good picks playing to potential.

1. Markstrom, Coleman, Tanev - great FA pickups

So to replicate the Tre team we need 8 first round talent, mostly top 10, or hit absolute homeruns on picks or trades. Current first round talent is Huberdeau, Kadri, Andersson, maybe Weegar, Sharangovich if he keeps it up, but none of them are top 10 (maybe Kadri). This is going to require several years of tanking and some luck. The rest of the team can be filled out through normal drafting and FAs.

[nieuwy-89]

Originally Posted by Skaloper

I blame McDavid. That Oilers/Flames series should have been way closer but the refing was atrocious in favour of the the Oilers. We probably still would have lost but it was just infuriating as a fan and probably even more so as a player!

I still blame Markstrom for that series loss. Unfortunately that will stain his legacy as a Flame unless he leads us on some miracle Cinderella run next year.

[Matty81]

Originally Posted by timun

I've said it before and I'll say it again: you have to evaluate the '90s GMs' moves almost entirely under the money lens. For almost every "inexplicable" trade made in retrospect, the explanation was actually quite simple: money. With the modern salary cap era now approaching its 20th anniversary I think a lot of younger fans especially don't understand or appreciate the financial constraints the Flames worked under from 1990-2004.

No question money forced them to make trades. while i appreciate a lot of the details about makarov in particular, i remember the financial issues of the era well too. But the core players being sent out were still mostly terrible deals for the most part in my view. Whether it was instruction from ownership or gms decision they largely attempted to retool rather than rebuild and obtained quite a few journeymen assets with not a lot of remaining value or upside

The Canadian teams were in dire straits but the ones who did better targeted younger players with potential when they were forced to move stars, like the oilers did. Tikkanen for weight. Marchment for hamrlik. Arnott for guerin. Mctavish for marchant.

when they dealt players they were forced to deal due to cost they targeted youth... flames went for downgraded vets who caused a decline and history should judge those decisions harshly. Not that the oilers won a cup or anything with that model but time has shown that financially constrained teams thrive when they regenerate with picks and prospects like the rays model in baseball.

And they were nhl regulars and 10x better than I'll ever be but I can't let it go by without pointing out that cassels and zalapski in particular were mediocre journeymen. Had season tickets when zalapski got booed off the ice and grabbed his crotch at the fans as he skated to the tunnel. Wasn't bad enough how ducking terrible he was defensively, so bad he made my eyes bleed. Cassels was a guy who could take 17 minutes a night and 1st pp unit time in a high scoring era and turn that into a 55 point season. Those were not cgy flames level players in that previous era and reflected crashing standards. we were an top tier franchise with almost a decade of excellence. There were reams of those trades of a HOF vet for a low value asset

I dont think they sold high on anyone from the late 80s/early 90s core. Gilmour everyone knows about but so many others. Joe Mullen was my favourite player and was still a 35-40 goal man with 4 or 5 seasons left and a hof resume and he went for a solitary bloody 2nd rounder. rumor was he wanted to go home to the us.. but just terrible value again. Suter might be the 3rd best defenceman the franchise has seen and he played almost another decade in the league albeit without a lot of his physical edge with the back stuff. Watching him play in chicago and then San Jose after zalapski wasn't even in the league anymore was so painful. He wasn't even close to done when the flames dealt him.

I never really understood why Carolina could insure roberts but we couldn't, was that a US v Canada thing? No matter how good his mask was getting rid of kidd in that deal was a win as well.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Matty81

I never really understood why Carolina could insure roberts but we couldn't, was that a US v Canada thing?

I don't recall it being about insurance. At the time, I read that Roberts specifically wanted to play in the East, because long flights were bad for his spine and there was a strong possibility of reinjury. I think Carolina understood at the time of the trade that he might not always be available for long road trips.

[Steve Bozek]

Originally Posted by Mickey76

No trade can be looked at from 93-04 without considering the financial implications. Much as everyone loves to hate on Bettman the overwhelming discouragement of that era cannot be understood unless you lived through it. There seemed to be a foregone conclusion that no small Canadian team would be able to afford a superstar. The trades the flames made post Gilmour weren’t bad trades by and large just economic necessities.

Two of the trades from that era that still bother me are the MacInnis and Suter moves, each done when the player needed a new contract. When Suter was traded, the team’s rationale was they had to trade him because they couldn’t afford to keep both of them at market value, and they had to keep MacInnis. Then, when MacInnis was expected to need a raise to around $3 Million/yr, IIRC, they decided not to pay, and traded him. Within a year, that would have been a bargain for the Flames. It worked out well for MacInnis in St. Louis, but he should have been a Flame for the rest of his career.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

I don't recall it being about insurance. At the time, I read that Roberts specifically wanted to play in the East, because long flights were bad for his spine and there was a strong possibility of reinjury. I think Carolina understood at the time of the trade that he might not always be available for long road trips.

Weren't there also rumors at the time that he and Fleury didn't exactly get along great? I recall hearing that in some circles.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Weren't there also rumors at the time that he and Fleury didn't exactly get along great? I recall hearing that in some circles.

I remember that well. I always felt that they should have re-signed Roberts and made him captain, as I thought he was the type of player that epitomizes Calgary.


I loved Fleury, until I started seeing how selfish he was. I had no idea he had substance abuse issues back then. One article I remember reading in particular that made me jump off the Fleury bandwagon was his complaining about not wanting to practice, apparently stating that he was too good for practice and didn't need it. I wonder how his teammates felt about it.


Roberts always struck me as such a professional and team-first type of player. Lots of noise around that time that Roberts and Fleury didn't get along.



As for the "Young Guns" talk, I don't look at that as a rebuild at all.


The reason why bringing up the Young Guns era makes people like me shudder is the fact that I remember how it felt during that time. In a rebuild like we went through in 2013 and what we are going through again today, the hope is that the Flames hit on a number of prospects that become superstars, and the team turns around and competes for championships. That's why this rebuild (and the last one) is exciting and something that I personally look forward to.


The Young Guns was not that. It certainly felt like if the Flames actually found any stars, that it would only be a matter of time before they moved on to greener pastures since the Flames wouldn't be able to afford them. It felt like the team was a farm team for the NHL, rather than a team that is competing with the NHL. The Young Guns were here not because the team was rebuilding, but because all of the good stars were already traded away.



On top of that, there was the constant worry that the team would move, the suddenly questionable drafting after getting used to massive home-runs, and very little in the way of success to celebrate. I think this is actually part of the reason why I sort of find it hard to to hate the tough guys in the league, as I remember some of the few bright spots was watching some of them. Sandy McCarthy taking the "Heavyweight Championship Belt" away from Probert, for instance, was one of the small highlights during that time.


At any rate, if the Flames drafted a star back then, I knew that star would move on when he became a star. Now if the Flames draft a star, I think it brings the team closer to a championship, and at the very least, I am likely to watch the majority of this star's career here in Calgary. That's the biggest difference here IMO.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Roberts for sure wanted out. He didn't come out publicly to demand a trade, but he wanted out.

[SutterBrother]

Originally Posted by DuckSauce

Lots of awesome posts in this thread but really appreciated this. Some of these were before my time - a few people mentioned the dark days of the Young Guns and getting lots of free tickets..that was my youth and I wouldn’t have been old enough to understand all of this at the time.

I don’t think I knew that Housley was who we got for MacInnis. I always wondered how a small Canadian market got an American Defenceman who put up 1232 career points.. even stranger that we got him twice in that era. What was the story behind getting him the second time? I remember my dad calling him Phil Lousy.

If you bought a 12 pack of coke at Safeway, you got a coupon for a $5 Flames ticket. Did that a lot while at University (where I was literally the ONLY student on campus with a Flames Ballcap - in my 4th year, I saw another one, and actually spoke to the dude as a result). Anyway, $5 entry, and then go sit in the bowl because it was empty.

Oh - and it was Phil the Thrill but not in a good way.

[SutterBrother]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Roberts for sure wanted out. He didn't come out publicly to demand a trade, but he wanted out.

My recollection was that he had spinal fusion surgery. One of the things he couldn't do anymore was spend a ton of time seated on long flights.

He needed to be traded to an Eastern based team as a result. Wanna say he had just won the Masterson trophy, and the Flames were totally willing to oblige given everything he sacrificed for the team.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by SutterBrother

My recollection was that he had spinal fusion surgery. One of the things he couldn't do anymore was spend a ton of time seated on long flights.

He needed to be traded to an Eastern based team as a result. Wanna say he had just won the Masterson trophy, and the Flames were totally willing to oblige given everything he sacrificed for the team.

All true, but the Flames were the team that supported him through the surgery and brought him back after he retired. He owed them as much as they owed him.

[timun]

Originally Posted by Matty81

No question money forced them to make trades. while i appreciate a lot of the details about makarov in particular, i remember the financial issues of the era well too. But the core players being sent out were still mostly terrible deals for the most part in my view. Whether it was instruction from ownership or gms decision they largely attempted to retool rather than rebuild and obtained quite a few journeymen assets with not a lot of remaining value or upside

The Canadian teams were in dire straits but the ones who did better targeted younger players with potential when they were forced to move stars, like the oilers did. Tikkanen for weight. Marchment for hamrlik. Arnott for guerin. Mctavish for marchant.

What do you think trading an almost-30-year-old Gary Suter and 28-year-old Paul Ranheim for about-to-turn-26 Zarley Zalapski and 21-year-old Michael Nylander was?

You just have a selective memory and are still butthurt about the team sucking ass for so long. The problem wasn't that the trades made no sense at the time, it's that they didn't pan out.

You bring up some Oilers trades as examples of "targeting younger players with potential" and are very selectively not mentioning some bangers like

• Jari Kurri, Dave Brown and Corey Foster for Scott Mellanby, Craig Berube and Craig Fisher,
• Glenn Anderson, Grant Fuhr and Craig Berube for Vincent Damphousse, Luke Richardson, Scott Thornton and Peter Ing,
• Mark Messier and Jeff Beukeboom for Bernie Nicholls, Steven Rice, Louie DeBrusk and David Shaw,
• Ken Linseman for nothing,
• Martin Rucinsky for Ron Tugnutt and Brad Zavisha,
• Vincent Damphousse and a fourth round pick for Shayne Corson, Brent Gilchrist and Vladimir Vujtek,
• Kevin Lowe for Roman Oksiuta and a third round pick,
• Bernie Nicholls for Zdeno Ciger and Kevin Todd,
• Petr Klima for a third round pick,
• Martin Gelinas and a sixth round pick for Scott Pearson,
• Craig Simpson for Jozef Cierny and a fourth round pick,
• Chris Joseph for Bob Beers,
• Miroslav Satan for Craig Millar and Barrie Moore,
• Mariusz Czerkawski for Dan LaCouture

Etc, etc.


Oh and Bill Guerin is four years older than Jason Arnott, by the way.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

All true, but the Flames were the team that supported him through the surgery and brought him back after he retired. He owed them as much as they owed him.

He couldn't pay that debt by playing for them if he wrecked his fused spine with excessive travel. It was either play in the East with less travel, or retire.

[timun]

Originally Posted by DuckSauce

I don’t think I knew that Housley was who we got for MacInnis. I always wondered how a small Canadian market got an American Defenceman who put up 1232 career points.. even stranger that we got him twice in that era. What was the story behind getting him the second time? I remember my dad calling him Phil Lousy.

Housley's defensive lapses were exposed quite badly in the '98 playoffs with the Capitals. Keep in mind that team went to the finals that year, with a really solid defence of Sergei Gonchar, Calle Johansson, Sylvain Côté (foolishly traded in the regular season for Jeff Brown), Mark Tinordi and Joe Reekie. By the playoffs Housley was essentially just a power play specialist playing sheltered minutes, while Gonchar played over 30 minutes per game and Johansson wasn't far behind.

The Capitals threw him on waivers in the off-season to shed salary and the Flames bit, desperate for some depth and bringing back at least some respectability to an otherwise putrid defensive corps. (The only teams that gave up more goals in '97-'98 were the Canucks, Lightning, Ducks and Panthers.)

Don't get me wrong: they were still bad, just not as bad as before. And Housley was going into the last year of the three-year deal he signed with the Caps anyway.

[timun]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

He couldn't pay that debt by playing for them if he wrecked his fused spine with excessive travel. It was either play in the East with less travel, or retire.

Yeah, there is no scenario in which Gary Roberts continued playing as a Calgary Flame. He was advised to retire. Again, with hindsight it seems like a sucky move, but 31-year-old-who-was-never-going-to-play-again and 25-year-old-basket-case-goalie for 28-year-old-second-line-centre and 20-year-old-goalie-prospect was a perfectly sound trade at the time.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by timun

You bring up some Oilers trades as examples of "targeting younger players with potential" and are very selectively not mentioning some bangers like

• Jari Kurri, Dave Brown and Corey Foster for Scott Mellanby, Craig Berube and Craig Fisher,
• Glenn Anderson, Grant Fuhr and Craig Berube for Vincent Damphousse, Luke Richardson, Scott Thornton and Peter Ing,
• Mark Messier and Jeff Beukeboom for Bernie Nicholls, Steven Rice, Louie DeBrusk and David Shaw,
• Ken Linseman for nothing,
• Martin Rucinsky for Ron Tugnutt and Brad Zavisha,
• Vincent Damphousse and a fourth round pick for Shayne Corson, Brent Gilchrist and Vladimir Vujtek,
• Kevin Lowe for Roman Oksiuta and a third round pick,
• Bernie Nicholls for Zdeno Ciger and Kevin Todd,
• Petr Klima for a third round pick,
• Martin Gelinas and a sixth round pick for Scott Pearson,
• Craig Simpson for Jozef Cierny and a fourth round pick,
• Chris Joseph for Bob Beers,
• Miroslav Satan for Craig Millar and Barrie Moore,
• Mariusz Czerkawski for Dan LaCouture

Etc, etc.

In that era, I used to refer to them as the Proud Old Oilers.

Sometimes I just used the initials.

[TheScorpion]

Speaking of Flames rebuilds/retools, I wrote a large column over at Daily Faceoff today about what the Flames are facing (and how they don't currently have a core):

https://www.dailyfaceoff.com/news/th...is-years-draft

[blankall]

Originally Posted by timun

What do you think trading an almost-30-year-old Gary Suter and 28-year-old Paul Ranheim for about-to-turn-26 Zarley Zalapski and 21-year-old Michael Nylander was?

You just have a selective memory and are still butthurt about the team sucking ass for so long. The problem wasn't that the trades made no sense at the time, it's that they didn't pan out.

You bring up some Oilers trades as examples of "targeting younger players with potential" and are very selectively not mentioning some bangers like

• Jari Kurri, Dave Brown and Corey Foster for Scott Mellanby, Craig Berube and Craig Fisher,
• Glenn Anderson, Grant Fuhr and Craig Berube for Vincent Damphousse, Luke Richardson, Scott Thornton and Peter Ing,
• Mark Messier and Jeff Beukeboom for Bernie Nicholls, Steven Rice, Louie DeBrusk and David Shaw,
• Ken Linseman for nothing,
• Martin Rucinsky for Ron Tugnutt and Brad Zavisha,
• Vincent Damphousse and a fourth round pick for Shayne Corson, Brent Gilchrist and Vladimir Vujtek,
• Kevin Lowe for Roman Oksiuta and a third round pick,
• Bernie Nicholls for Zdeno Ciger and Kevin Todd,
• Petr Klima for a third round pick,
• Martin Gelinas and a sixth round pick for Scott Pearson,
• Craig Simpson for Jozef Cierny and a fourth round pick,
• Chris Joseph for Bob Beers,
• Miroslav Satan for Craig Millar and Barrie Moore,
• Mariusz Czerkawski for Dan LaCouture

Etc, etc.


Oh and Bill Guerin is four years older than Jason Arnott, by the way.

Damphouse played for the oilers? Why did they deal him? Demanded out?

[timun]

Yes, Vinny Damphousse was an Oiler for a year! An infamous piece of trivia involving him is that he's the only player to lead three different Canadian NHL teams in scoring across three consecutive seasons. (He was the Maple Leafs' leading scorer in '90-'91, Oilers' in '91-'92, and Canadiens' in '92-'93.)

Allegedly, yes, Damphousse demanded out. The next year the Habs won the Stanley Cup while the Oilers missed the playoffs for the first time since joining the NHL.