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Old 04-09-2024, 12:58 PM   #21
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Some of the things I have always wondered about:

*What was it like when Nieuwendyk rumours started? Did fans want picks/prospects or an established star before getting Iginla?
*I recall writing on the wall that Theo would leave - were his personal issues well known or rumoured? What were some of the returns people hoped for before the Colorado Regehr trade?
*was the Young Gunz era doom and gloom from the start with Canadian markets struggling? The Save the Flames campaign and half of the 300 level closing suggests no. Was the term rebuild even a concept?
*Who have been some of your favourite prospects or free agent signings you thought would be stars that ended up busts? What trades really set the Flames back (or ahead) aside from the obvious MSL buyout and Savard trade?
Fun thread for us old coots. My thoughts:
Nieuwy was gone, based on the economics of the day and the lack of success after '89. I think we all knew that we would never "win" the trade, but were happy with younger players/draft picks. Iggy hit at the WJC shortly thereafter, and Flames fans were really excited.

Fleury was a good soldier and poster boy for the franchise for a long time. I might be in the minority with this thought, but when he left, he said it wasn't about the money, but of course it was about the money. He went to the Avs and then signed for bigger money with the Rangers, which pretty much everyone thought was a mistake. It was. As mentioned, we didn't have too much knowledge on the players that could come back, but Reggie was a home run.

I don't have fond memories of the Young Guns, as I was sharing season tickets at the time. In retrospect, some seem overly nostalgic about many of those guys. We sucked. We knew we sucked and you basically couldn't give those tickets away.

Not busts, but guys like Titov and Reichel I thought could be really good. That is going a ways back! The bad trades are fairly obvious, Ference for Brad Stuart was an underrated terrible one.
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Old 04-09-2024, 01:04 PM   #22
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The Flames had pretty gigantic structural economic issues conspiring against them from basically when the Canadian dollar crashed in the early '90s until the 2004-05 lockout. They were basically in survival mode to various degrees from the mid '90s onward.
Yeah, that is why I don't really consider that era a rebuild or retool. That was just treading water and trying to survive under the financial constraints of the time.
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Old 04-09-2024, 01:19 PM   #23
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I think this rebuild will be very hard to judge for a least a few years. maybe outside of the early 90s, rebuilds always start with a lot of hope and prospects.

Tre left us with;
  • Promising second line potential forwards in guys like Zary, Coronato, Pelletier.
  • Young role players, who might have an impact on a good team in guys like Klapka and Pospisil.
  • Reasonably strong offensive support for an NHL team in Backlund, Kadri, Coleman, Huberdeuau
  • A blue chip goaltending prospect in Wolf

Conroy has brought in;
  • Two good scoring wingers in Kuzi, and Sharangovich
  • a hand full of D that should be pushing for an NHL job now
  • a cupboard full of draft picks.

I think this rebuild has a lot of big questions.
  • Can Weegar, Andersson, and Kylington anchor a strong D core for the next 6 years?
  • Will 1 or 2 of Conroys gamble D prospects turn into a top 4 contributor?
  • Can the Flames draft a guy in the next two years that will be a major impact player 3-6 years from now?
  • Can the Flames get value out of a couple of those extra high picks they collected
  • Will Wolf turn into a top 10 goaltender in the world or a top 30 goaltender in the world?


Watching rebuilds in the past, I think it's unlikely you hit all 5 of those out of the park. If they those 5 things all come together they way we want, we are probably looking at the 2028 champs. But realistically probably half of those come together, we're looking at a good team again, but they need to hit 1 or 2 unexpected home runs in drafts or trades to really contend (like Kipper, or Gaudraeu).

You look at prospects from trading stars, and a lot don't work out.
Agostino or Hanowski. You look at bonus picks from star players in the first two rounds, and there's pretty limited success. Parsons, Klimchuk.
But some times you get Bouwmeester for Leoplod and a wasted pick. Sometimes you get Andersson for Beartschi. Sometimes it works out for both teams you get Kipper now, and they pick Vlasic later. These things usually require a little bit of hindsight.


edit: I'll also say, the last rebuild was probably a lot closer than a lot of us think, there is a world where Monahan and Bennett are a little healthier, Fox doesn't push his way out, and a couple guys don't end up on personal leave for very different reasons.

This could have been a pretty consistent 105+ point team every year from 2019-2027.

Gaudreau-Linholm-Tkatchuk
Mangiapane-Monahan-Bennett
Coleman-Backlund-Dube

Fox-Andersson
Haniffin-Tanev
Kylington

Markstrom

Last edited by #-3; 04-09-2024 at 01:31 PM.
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Old 04-09-2024, 01:33 PM   #24
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I remember the Flames having some undersized prospects that struggled in the league of that era, I wonder if a guy like Marty Murray would have had more success in modern times. I try not to dwell on Martin St. Louis too much.
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Old 04-09-2024, 01:38 PM   #25
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Anybody still have the Rico Fata gif?
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Old 04-09-2024, 01:55 PM   #26
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No trade can be looked at from 93-04 without considering the financial implications. Much as everyone loves to hate on Bettman the overwhelming discouragement of that era cannot be understood unless you lived through it. There seemed to be a foregone conclusion that no small Canadian team would be able to afford a superstar. The trades the flames made post Gilmour weren’t bad trades by and large just economic necessities.
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Old 04-09-2024, 02:08 PM   #27
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2001 Kobasew (Looking back at his numbers they do seem disappointing but I think his relationship with Iggy was huge and hate that trade for Stuart which totally ruined the room)
Often wonder how we would have done in 06 if we made a push with Kobasew and a first + for Samsonov instead of Edmonton getting him. Our issue was scoring in 06. Especially with trading him for Stuart who left soon after.

A lot of what if's in this thread and being a flames fan overall but that team was coming off the 04 run and really just needed one more scorer. Kipper was just as elite as 04.
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Old 04-09-2024, 02:09 PM   #28
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No trade can be looked at from 93-04 without considering the financial implications. Much as everyone loves to hate on Bettman the overwhelming discouragement of that era cannot be understood unless you lived through it. There seemed to be a foregone conclusion that no small Canadian team would be able to afford a superstar. The trades the flames made post Gilmour weren’t bad trades by and large just economic necessities.
There was no need for the Savard and St Louis moves, especially with Greg Gilbert fired shortly afterwards.
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Old 04-09-2024, 02:12 PM   #29
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was too young for most of that era until about 02-03 I started having capacity for critical thought and started noticing other Canadian teams like Canucks and Oilers and Sens that were small market like us with similar payrolls yet were having decent playoff runs and had a hey wait a minute moment. It sort of shattered this narrative for child-me about " oooowww we're just a widdle small market team that can't compete"

Then in 03 they hired Sutter and it proved to me what I suspected that the above narrative was just an excuse for the fact that nobody in Flames management knew their head from their ass for a decade.
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Old 04-09-2024, 02:19 PM   #30
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Looking back at what I see as the three main rebuilds, lot of mistakes made. The 90s rebuild was the worst. Gilmour deal obviously just crippling. But they also gave away many other stalwarts, with a failed approach of getting a similar guy who was slightly worse that was very short sighted. Like Suter for Zalapski, MacInnis for Housley. I think vernon went for Chiasson. Gary Roberts for Andrew Cassels. Downgrade everyone with cheaper replacement vets rather than go for youth. And then inexplicably gave away declining but still star players like Makarov and Mullen for almost nothing. It was as bad a rebuild/retool as you could imagine to go from a complete powerhouse loaded with high end talent to a middle of the pack group of older players in a very brief period of time. Riseborough in particular was just incredibly bad at what he did before he gained experience but money was a big driver.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: you have to evaluate the '90s GMs' moves almost entirely under the money lens. For almost every "inexplicable" trade made in retrospect, the explanation was actually quite simple: money. With the modern salary cap era now approaching its 20th anniversary I think a lot of younger fans especially don't understand or appreciate the financial constraints the Flames worked under from 1990-2004.

With respect to "giving away declining but still star players like Makarov and Mullen", yes, in retrospect there were some bad moves there. Mullen and Brad McCrimmon were dealt just before the 1990 Entry Draft because they were both seen to be on the decline. McCrimmon also didn't particularly get along with Terry Crisp, and Badger Bob—by then coaching in Pittsburgh—lobbied Craig Patrick hard to get Mullen. Cliff Fletcher used the 2nd round pick acquired for McCrimmon to move up in the draft and get Trevor Kidd, which we all know in retrospect was a bad call. They also soon got rid of Jiri Hrdina, Mark Hunter, Colin Patterson and Brian MacLellan for the exact same age and 'decline' reasons, and those were generally pretty shrewd moves: those guys barely played after the Flames moved them elsewhere.

Makarov on the other hand got dealt because he wanted out. He was a selfish, sullen, arrogant ass on the ice. I've said it before: one of my least favourite Flames ever. He signed an RFA deal with the Sharks in 1992, which the Flames matched to keep him. In retrospect Risebrough should have just let him walk, at the time the rules were such that the Flames would have to be compensated with one or more players anyway. By the end of the '92-'93 season Makarov was benched and he didn't play in the playoffs. Keep in mind that the Sharks only got two years out of him too: by the end of the '94-'95 season they'd had enough and bought out the last year of his contract, so desperate they were to rid themselves of him.


Otherwise the rest of the deals you mentioned were a result of money, pure and simple. Suter was dealt to Hartford for not just Zalapski, but James Patrick and Michael Nylander too (with Ted Drury and Paul Ranheim going the other way along with Suter). Frankly, they sold high and got a decent haul for him. The problem wasn't with the return per se, it was that unfortunately Zalapski, Patrick and Nylander barely played with the Flames after the '95-'96 season; in the cases of Patrick and Zalapski because of injury, and in the case of Nylander because of... money!

MacInnis was traded for Housley because MacInnis wanted more money. Housley was ultimately packaged to Jersey for Tommy Albelin, Cale Hulse and Jocelyn Lemieux because he wanted more money. Vernon was traded to the Red Wings because he wanted more money. Nieuwendyk was traded to Dallas because he wanted more money. Reichel was traded to the Islanders because he wanted more money. Fleury was traded to Colorado because he wanted more money.

Roberts was traded to the Hurricanes with Trevor Kidd for Cassels and J-S Giguere because he was never going to play another game for the Flames. The medical staff had advised Roberts to retire, and he wanted to continue, so they sent him in the package with Kidd for Cassels and Giguere. Giguere was a great prospect and Craig Button trading him away will always be seen as a bonehead move, but Cassels was a perfectly good player in his own right too. He had seasons of 56, 62 and 68 points with the Canucks and Blue Jackets after his two years with the Flames: I know points aren't everything but that's more than Roberts ever put up for the Hurricanes or Maple Leafs. If you look at that trade as "guy-who-will-never-play-again and moody-goalie-who-sucks traded to Carolina for good-second-line-centre and Conn-Smythe-winner-goalie, it's actually a pretty frickin' phenomenal trade for the Flames.
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Old 04-09-2024, 02:51 PM   #31
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Reitterating my thanked posts, with my appreciation for the detail. Forgot about the Makarov benching, and the Roberts retirement return. Those Canucks would just chop at ol Gar's neck. Sarge for a second, oof.
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Old 04-09-2024, 03:07 PM   #32
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edit: I'll also say, the last rebuild was probably a lot closer than a lot of us think, there is a world where Monahan and Bennett are a little healthier, Fox doesn't push his way out, and a couple guys don't end up on personal leave for very different reasons.

This could have been a pretty consistent 105+ point team every year from 2019-2027.

Gaudreau-Linholm-Tkatchuk
Mangiapane-Monahan-Bennett
Coleman-Backlund-Dube

Fox-Andersson
Haniffin-Tanev
Kylington

Markstrom
I agree. If you call this the Treliving era, it’s structurally the best “rebuild” since the 80s. Imagine the potential if Bennett developed to his potential as a top 6 centre with grit and scoring touch.

Tre’s rebuild was done in by poor development of Bennett, injuries to Monahan, and failure to lock down Tkachuk to an affordable long term deal when he had the chance.
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Old 04-09-2024, 03:17 PM   #33
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At the time my cousin was the dentist for the Kamloops Blazers and watched a lot of their games. When the trade happened he called and said you are going to love this Iginla kid. I had never heard of him. Boy was he right!

Reading the Tij thread makes me think about that. Wouldn’t it be awesome if we could land him.

Also it stings somewhat being a Flames fan all these years given our proximity to EDM. As a kid I was tormented by Gretzky etc. I remember being in the Dome for the playoff game when he rifled a shot past Vernon in OT and Sather essentially flipped us the bird.

Now after all their first round busts we have to put up with them having been gifted McBaby and Dry Cycle. As much as I’m looking forward to the new look Flames it will be very satisfying seeing one or both of them sign with other teams.

For now we are stuck with cheering for EDM losses which unfortunately for the last 2 years are more satisfying than Flames wins.
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Old 04-09-2024, 03:51 PM   #34
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I've said it before and I'll say it again: you have to evaluate the '90s GMs' moves almost entirely under the money lens. For almost every "inexplicable" trade made in retrospect, the explanation was actually quite simple: money. With the modern salary cap era now approaching its 20th anniversary I think a lot of younger fans especially don't understand or appreciate the financial constraints the Flames worked under from 1990-2004.

With respect to "giving away declining but still star players like Makarov and Mullen", yes, in retrospect there were some bad moves there. Mullen and Brad McCrimmon were dealt just before the 1990 Entry Draft because they were both seen to be on the decline. McCrimmon also didn't particularly get along with Terry Crisp, and Badger Bob—by then coaching in Pittsburgh—lobbied Craig Patrick hard to get Mullen. Cliff Fletcher used the 2nd round pick acquired for McCrimmon to move up in the draft and get Trevor Kidd, which we all know in retrospect was a bad call. They also soon got rid of Jiri Hrdina, Mark Hunter, Colin Patterson and Brian MacLellan for the exact same age and 'decline' reasons, and those were generally pretty shrewd moves: those guys barely played after the Flames moved them elsewhere.

Makarov on the other hand got dealt because he wanted out. He was a selfish, sullen, arrogant ass on the ice. I've said it before: one of my least favourite Flames ever. He signed an RFA deal with the Sharks in 1992, which the Flames matched to keep him. In retrospect Risebrough should have just let him walk, at the time the rules were such that the Flames would have to be compensated with one or more players anyway. By the end of the '92-'93 season Makarov was benched and he didn't play in the playoffs. Keep in mind that the Sharks only got two years out of him too: by the end of the '94-'95 season they'd had enough and bought out the last year of his contract, so desperate they were to rid themselves of him.


Otherwise the rest of the deals you mentioned were a result of money, pure and simple. Suter was dealt to Hartford for not just Zalapski, but James Patrick and Michael Nylander too (with Ted Drury and Paul Ranheim going the other way along with Suter). Frankly, they sold high and got a decent haul for him. The problem wasn't with the return per se, it was that unfortunately Zalapski, Patrick and Nylander barely played with the Flames after the '95-'96 season; in the cases of Patrick and Zalapski because of injury, and in the case of Nylander because of... money!

MacInnis was traded for Housley because MacInnis wanted more money. Housley was ultimately packaged to Jersey for Tommy Albelin, Cale Hulse and Jocelyn Lemieux because he wanted more money. Vernon was traded to the Red Wings because he wanted more money. Nieuwendyk was traded to Dallas because he wanted more money. Reichel was traded to the Islanders because he wanted more money. Fleury was traded to Colorado because he wanted more money.

Roberts was traded to the Hurricanes with Trevor Kidd for Cassels and J-S Giguere because he was never going to play another game for the Flames. The medical staff had advised Roberts to retire, and he wanted to continue, so they sent him in the package with Kidd for Cassels and Giguere. Giguere was a great prospect and Craig Button trading him away will always be seen as a bonehead move, but Cassels was a perfectly good player in his own right too. He had seasons of 56, 62 and 68 points with the Canucks and Blue Jackets after his two years with the Flames: I know points aren't everything but that's more than Roberts ever put up for the Hurricanes or Maple Leafs. If you look at that trade as "guy-who-will-never-play-again and moody-goalie-who-sucks traded to Carolina for good-second-line-centre and Conn-Smythe-winner-goalie, it's actually a pretty frickin' phenomenal trade for the Flames.
Lots of awesome posts in this thread but really appreciated this. Some of these were before my time - a few people mentioned the dark days of the Young Guns and getting lots of free tickets..that was my youth and I wouldn’t have been old enough to understand all of this at the time.

I don’t think I knew that Housley was who we got for MacInnis. I always wondered how a small Canadian market got an American Defenceman who put up 1232 career points.. even stranger that we got him twice in that era. What was the story behind getting him the second time? I remember my dad calling him Phil Lousy.
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Old 04-09-2024, 04:02 PM   #35
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Ah yes, going waaay away back to the teams that skated on home ice at the Canadian Airlines Saddledome. Aka Pengrowth Saddledome. I do miss the old roof paint job.

For all you kids out there watching the Flames was like watching a dollar store knock off of an NHL team.

You want a Scott Niedermayer? Here you get a Rob Niedermayer. Pavel Bure? That's an exciting superstar right?! Here we bring you Valeri Bure!!!

That's not being fair to Rob and Valeri but y'all get the gist. Dollar store knock off brand ...
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Old 04-09-2024, 06:05 PM   #36
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Before my time but didn’t the Flames also rebuild in 1981?

The Young guns rebuild was a disaster. The Flames were forced to sell their stars but management tried to keep the team competitive instead of cashing in on picks and prospects. Even the Nieuwendyk trade was a poor return at the time. Then when the team finally acquired some good young players under Coates ownership got impatient firing him and setting the rebuild back a few more years.

The 2010s rebuild was better but also hurt by not getting enough of a return for the stars. Also traded too many picks for short term fixes and some plain bad luck with draft lotteries and Bennett not panning out.

Am far more optimistic about the current rebuild given the actual solid reruns from trades.
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Old 04-09-2024, 06:11 PM   #37
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I agree. If you call this the Treliving era, it’s structurally the best “rebuild” since the 80s. Imagine the potential if Bennett developed to his potential as a top 6 centre with grit and scoring touch.

Tre’s rebuild was done in by poor development of Bennett, injuries to Monahan, and failure to lock down Tkachuk to an affordable long term deal when he had the chance.
I blame McDavid. That Oilers/Flames series should have been way closer but the refing was atrocious in favour of the the Oilers. We probably still would have lost but it was just infuriating as a fan and probably even more so as a player!
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Old 04-09-2024, 06:17 PM   #38
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There was no need for the Savard and St Louis moves, especially with Greg Gilbert fired shortly afterwards.
The Savard trade you are of course correct, but I disagree with St. Louis. He was just not seen as a good player. He was left unprotected and no team picked him up. I view him as one the great career turnarounds. Still can’t believe how good he became:
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Old 04-09-2024, 06:18 PM   #39
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I don't think the Flames have ever truly rebuilt. If Conroy stays the course, this might be the first time.

Teams that truly rebuild, usually stockpile a few top 3, or at least top 5 picks during that time. The Flames typically try to rush it, or retool on the fly.
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Old 04-09-2024, 06:28 PM   #40
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Before my time but didn’t the Flames also rebuild in 1981?
They did ship out a lot of players who had never wanted to move to Calgary in the first place. But it wasn't what most fans would consider a rebuild, because they traded several of those assets for established players – notably Lanny McDonald, Mel Bridgman, and Doug Risebrough.

They also continued to make the playoffs every year, but that was not much of an accomplishment when four teams made the playoffs in a five-team division.
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