26 games to go and there's nothing to see here

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Poe969

I"m happy Hiller will be in net for a while. Let's face it, the playoffs are a dream. Every loss brings the team closer to a higher draft pick and he gives us good odds every time he's in net.

Careful what you wish for, the stink of losing can be very difficult to wash off. It's not unlike trying to get grease stains out of your favorite sweatpants before a big night on the town. You should ask Edmontonians, they know all about it.

[codynw]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Careful what you wish for, the stink of losing can be very difficult to wash off. It's not unlike trying to get grease stains out of your favorite sweatpants before a big night on the town. You should ask Edmontonians, they know all about it.

Edmonton is the exception, not the rule.

They've been mediocre for a decade now. The Flames made the second round of the playoffs last year.

[Mister Yamoto]

Ya, Frolik has been OK. But when the highest paid forward on the team has 21 points it's not much of a surprise that the Flames are in 25th place and dropping.

Way too many guys in the 2.5 to 4.5 salary range on this team. And to make it worse, most of them aren't producing. Stajan, Backlund, Raymond, Bouma, Hudler, Jones and that is just the forwards. All those guys making above average salaries and maybe one or two of those guys are above average players.

I'm starting to think that the best way to build a winner is how the Blackhawks are doing it. If you are not a star player being paid 6+, you are making about 1 million. Treliving seems to be trying to do the opposite of that. 7 D making over 2.6. Generally speaking, you just don't seem to get as much value on medium end talent.

Eric Estrada is right about Colborne. Really the Flames need a few more Colborne/Jooris types on the team because that is the only way to afford more top end talent. And depth is nice, but in the end it is top end talent that wins.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Careful what you wish for, the stink of losing can be very difficult to wash off. It's not unlike trying to get grease stains out of your favorite sweatpants before a big night on the town. You should ask Edmontonians, they know all about it.

Flames fans have to stop obsessing about Edmonton. The Hawks were terrible until they got better players. Then they became good. The Blues were terrible until they got better players. Then they were good. The Stars were terrible until they got better players. Now they're good. The Panthers were terrible for about a decade. Now they have better players, and they're the second best team in their conference.

I don't see a 'losing culture' holding any team back once they get good players, with the exception of the Oilers. And that's because that whole organization is no good.

I think it's a mistake for a rebuilding team to wait until it's mathematically eliminated from the playoffs to focus on developing young players. At some point, the only way you'll know if these prospects will become NHLers is to play them in the NHL. And you need a bigger sample size than eight games at the end of the season.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Wow, since his slow start Hamilton has been very good.

Frolik has been pretty much what has been advertised except for some very unfortunate injuries.

I'd say that they have come pretty close to living up to what was promised.

And there's going to certainly be some development time for a 22 year old defenseman like Hamilton.

Frolik and Hamilton make up 14% of the salary cap for the Flames. The highest paid forward and highest paid defenseman for this year.

I agree Frolik has been solid and Hamilton has improved and shown flashes. But for their money, I was hoping they would impact the team in terms of wins and losses. They really haven't. Hamilton is 5th in ice time among our D and Frolik has 21 points.

For a combined $10 million, I was really hoping for difference makers. Maybe they still will be and I'm not calling them busts at all. But in a cap world, I don't feel the Flames are getting their money's worth this year.

[SofaProfessor]

Originally Posted by Mister Yamoto

I'm starting to think that the best way to build a winner is how the Blackhawks are doing it. If you are not a star player being paid 6+, you are making about 1 million.

If you look at the successful NBA and NFL teams, this is how it works. It's how your team has to be built in a salary cap league. You grab a few stars that can break open a game by themselves and fill out the rest of the team with serviceable guys that are making peanuts. Then you cross your fingers and hope a couple of your cheap guys (like Panarin in Chicago) turn out to be diamonds in the rough.

[saillias]

Originally Posted by codynw

I wouldn't trade Hiller for anything. He's the key to unlocking Auston Matthews.

*Key to unlocking 30th place which promptly drops to 4th overall in the league's bonkers new lottery plan. Oh you wanted Laine? You get the Nylander spawn instead.

[flamesfan1297]

Originally Posted by polak

.................................................. ................................... Now you can move on.

I just want to say that Polak has the most accurate avatar when compared to his posting style. Everything he posts is so negative and sad, so is his avatar. Everytime I read one of his posts and then look at his avatar it makes me laugh. It just fits his posting style so well.

[saillias]

Why do people want Bennett at centre so bad? Please explain.

[DJones]

Frolik has always been a 40-45 point jack of all trades. He's been exactly that.

If we end up in 5th position on the draft what will it cost us to move into the top 3?

I want those big Finnish wingers!

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by DJones

Frolik has always been a 40-45 point jack of all trades. He's been exactly that.

If we end up in 5th position on the draft what will it cost us to move into the top 3?

I want those big Finnish wingers!

I want any winger that can finish

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by saillias

Why do people want Bennett at centre so bad? Please explain.

Because if you're a cup winning team, your all-around best forward needs to be your #1 Center. Gaudreau isn't a natural center and we can live with that only if Bennett is. The #1 center erases dangerous situations at the defensive end and then converts them into dangerous situations at the offensive end. The #1 center soaks up the top matchups and flips them on their side. That opens up the game for the #2 line (Monahan/Gaudreau) with space.

Your #1 Center is your speed down the middle. He's the cerebellum of the offense, co-ordinating defensive exits, neutral zone play, and offensive entries. He's that third defenseman that can spring his wingers on the fast break. These are all skills that are what Sam Bennett was made for. We've already seen hints of it, when he played center early in the season, that the game was just flowing better with him at center. This team is awful against trapping teams because we don't have a #1C to dissect them apart.

I believe Sam Bennett is the only player in the Flames Organization who can truly make the game easier for Gaudreau and Monahan, by drawing the competition away from them. That upside being harnessed properly is something we need if a championship is the goal. There's a reason McDavid, Eichel, Draisaitl, Barkov and I believe, but I may be wrong, Larkin, are all already playing center. You don't waste your best talent on the wings if they are natural centers. In Detroit's case though they might just think they have a shot at the cup though, if Larkin is on the wing. That's only because Datsyuk is still a true #1C.

Additionally, moving Backlund down to 3C will have a profound effect on the team's depth scoring. Backlund is naturally a #2 Center, but as a 3C that means the Flames will get a lot of scoring from their 3rd line they're not getting right now, because again centers do so much to control the play. Backlund is a fine middle 6 center. But he doesn't draw attention away from Gaudreau. Ever. Having him on the third line, and moving Granlund over to wing, gives us not one, not two, but three dangerous lines relative to their competition.

In order for Bennett to become a #1 Center, he has to become a Center.

[MarkGio]

Flames trade Wideman @50% retained, plus Backlund, plus Hudler, plus 3rd
Stars trade Valeri Nichushkin

Flames trade Russell, plus Colborne, plus Hickey, plus 2nd
Lightning trade Drouin

Flames trade Jones, Bollig and Stajan (@50%) for whatever picks they can recoup

Flames draft Laine, sign S. Gagne to a PTO, sign Riemer, and sign J. Schultz to a PTO

2016-17 Roster
Gaudreau - Monahan - Nichushkin
Drouin - Bennett - Laine
Granlund - Grant/Gagne - Frolik
Bouma - Jooris - Ferland

Giordano - Brodie
Andersson - Hamilton
Smid - Engelland

Riemer
Ortio

[Flamefan1]

Originally Posted by Cube Inmate

I see your point. Some customers (although I can't say what percentage) would certainly prefer to see experimentation at this point regardless of the results, but others undoubtedly want to see the "best" lineup out there and a win on the ice (me too, against EDM at least).

However, I would also argue that at this point, Bollig, Jones, Jooris, Stajan, Engelland, Smid, Bouma, and Colborne are all no better than their potential AHL replacements in terms of creating wins. They might, on paper, be better or "more proven" players than said replacements, but I'd have as much confidence in a win with or without any/all of them. Call-ups bring some energy, which is seriously lacking from top to bottom right now.

And in goal... let's just never see Hiller again.

Jooris is much more valuable than any of the others in this list. If given enough ice team he will surprise most who underestimate his value.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by DJones

Frolik has always been a 40-45 point jack of all trades. He's been exactly that.

Yup
Forlik is the perfect compliment for a top 6 pair.
No team is going to have 6 elite forwards or even top line scorers. You need 2 strong pairs, and a guy that compliments. Frolik is one of the latter. I'm perfectly happy with him.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Yup
Forlik is the perfect compliment for a top 6 pair.
No team is going to have 6 elite forwards or even top line scorers. You need 2 strong pairs, and a guy that compliments. Frolik is one of the latter. I'm perfectly happy with him.

I agree Frolik comes as advertised. The debate is whether he is worth the money he is making and are you better off paying big money to top guys and filling the Frolik role wth younger guys. I dnt believe there's a single right answer.

I still don't see that he has helped make the Flames better. Agreed he is not a big points guy but he is billed as an elite penalty killer. The Flames penalty kill is awful.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

Flames trade Wideman @50% retained, plus Backlund, plus Hudler, plus 3rd
Stars trade Valeri Nichushkin

Flames trade Russell, plus Colborne, plus Hickey, plus 2nd
Lightning trade Drouin

Flames trade Jones, Bollig and Stajan (@50%) for whatever picks they can recoup

Flames draft Laine, sign S. Gagne to a PTO, sign Riemer, and sign J. Schultz to a PTO

2016-17 Roster
Gaudreau - Monahan - Nichushkin
Drouin - Bennett - Laine
Granlund - Grant/Gagne - Frolik
Bouma - Jooris - Ferland

Giordano - Brodie
Andersson - Hamilton
Smid - Engelland

Riemer
Ortio

Wait, Simon Gagne? Wut?

[blender]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Because if you're a cup winning team, your all-around best forward needs to be your #1 Center. Gaudreau isn't a natural center and we can live with that only if Bennett is. The #1 center erases dangerous situations at the defensive end and then converts them into dangerous situations at the offensive end. The #1 center soaks up the top matchups and flips them on their side. That opens up the game for the #2 line (Monahan/Gaudreau) with space.

Your #1 Center is your speed down the middle. He's the cerebellum of the offense, co-ordinating defensive exits, neutral zone play, and offensive entries. He's that third defenseman that can spring his wingers on the fast break. These are all skills that are what Sam Bennett was made for. We've already seen hints of it, when he played center early in the season, that the game was just flowing better with him at center. This team is awful against trapping teams because we don't have a #1C to dissect them apart.

I believe Sam Bennett is the only player in the Flames Organization who can truly make the game easier for Gaudreau and Monahan, by drawing the competition away from them. That upside being harnessed properly is something we need if a championship is the goal. There's a reason McDavid, Eichel, Draisaitl, Barkov and I believe, but I may be wrong, Larkin, are all already playing center. You don't waste your best talent on the wings if they are natural centers. In Detroit's case though they might just think they have a shot at the cup though, if Larkin is on the wing. That's only because Datsyuk is still a true #1C.

Additionally, moving Backlund down to 3C will have a profound effect on the team's depth scoring. Backlund is naturally a #2 Center, but as a 3C that means the Flames will get a lot of scoring from their 3rd line they're not getting right now, because again centers do so much to control the play. Backlund is a fine middle 6 center. But he doesn't draw attention away from Gaudreau. Ever. Having him on the third line, and moving Granlund over to wing, gives us not one, not two, but three dangerous lines relative to their competition.

In order for Bennett to become a #1 Center, he has to become a Center.

Good post; well-written and passionate with a lot of insight.

Two points from me:

One, Bennett is that player; I agree with you there 100%, but I don't feel the angst about him playing wing this season. The skills that will make him a #1 center won't atrophy on the wing. He will get there. His game has developed in front of our eyes this season. We just need to be patient. I have no issue with how he is being used.

Two, my main concern about overpaying for Gaudreau now (which I expressed in the Francis thread) is that, by position he can't be the Flames MVP if they are to be a true cup contender. That's Bennett's role IMO, and if it takes a bridge deal to Gaudreau to buy time to ascertain Bennett's value and set the pay scale, so be it.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Wait, Simon Gagne? Wut?

Sam Gagne

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

Sam Gagne

Considering that there has been both an 'S. Gagne' and an 'S. Gagner' in the NHL recently, you may want to check your spelling.

It's Gagner.