[News] Flames recall Ortio

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by IgiTang

Well, no I'm not wrong.

Ferland with the top line.

I like Ferland, but he has 10 points in 42 games and is in his first full season. Ferland has the ability to be the mucker in the corner for two skill guys and create enough havoc to give them the space to score. I'm not sure if you were for it or against it either with this sentence, but I have absolutely no problem with how he's handled Ferland's ice time.

Wideman playing all season pre-suspension

You mean by dropping him to the 3rd pairing even strength and only playing him on the power play which is his strength? Wideman didn't deliver, but you can't fault Hartley for trying to play him to his strengths.

The goalie mess to start the year

Not his fault. Blame Treliving if you must blame someone in management, but all 3 goalies #### the bed. Can't really put that on Hartley.

Bennett not getting the PP time for half the year

The same Bennett who struggled for 2 months to produce? Funny how his increased power play time coincided with his better overall performance and higher levels of production. He's a rookie. You don't automatically gift him time on the power play. You have to go with the guys that were playing decently. Now if you want to debate having Jooris or Colborne on the power play ahead of Bennett, that's probably a fair discussion, but it's nothing I lose sleep over.

Colborne...

Just the fact that he's on the team or the fact that he's got a variable tool set that can help different lines? Hartley tried him at times on the top pairing. Not a problem since Hudler was struggling so much. He tried him on the power play a lot. Can't fault him since Colborne is a big body that can screen well, digs in the corners well, protects the puck well, and has soft hands. It didn't work, but can't fault him for trying. If you're upset, be upset with Colborne for failing to play better.

Mason Raymond getting tons of PP time for the first half .

Fair criticism. Raymond should have been in the minors all year long, but Hartley still played the players he was given accordingly. Raymond being in the lineup wasn't the worst thing, but being on the power play probably wasn't great.

Healthy scratching Jooris for a spot for Raymond and/or Bollig

I have zero problem with this. Jooris has all of 7 points on the year. He has great energy, but hasn't been entirely effective all year long. Besides, swapping out 4th liners occasionally has zero...I repeat, zero...bearing on the outcome of a game.

And so on...

I don't like what he's doing? Well thanks for being my brain, if you could go ahead and sort out the rest of my life so I don't have to think anymore, that would be awesome!

YES. Clearly you don't like what he's doing. But my point stands that he's been relatively consistent in his approach. Most of your points about him screwing up are minor at best though.

[Split98]

Originally Posted by Stealth22

Stupid question... Will Ortio have to go through waivers if we want to send him down again?

Depends...

If a player cleared waivers and is subsequently recalled during the same year, he does not have to clear waivers again unless he has either played 10 or more NHL games or has spent 30 or more days on an NHL roster since last clearing. Otherwise, he will have to re-clear waivers to be assigned.

http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/20...ide-to-the-nhl

Have to think that they'll send him down and call up Poulin before that happens. Unless Ortio is taking over the net, of course.

[Toonage]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Aside from the stats though I guess he was getting just lit up in practice. It looked bad.

I was on the high Ortio horse about him not getting a fair shot but I heard / read similar things. Poor in practice, not handling himself well off the ice (such as refusing the conditioning stint). Who knows what else was up during that time. He may have whined the entire time he was up for all we know.

[Jacks]

Well we always have the option of running with an empty net.

[madmike]

Originally Posted by AcGold

Maybe Edmonton will trade him for Brossoit, they are pretty dumb.

Knowing the Flames luck with goalies, Brossoit will then pull an Ortio and transform from a promising young goaltender into an ECHL-level sieve.

[IgiTang]

NM... This isn't worth the frustration..

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by IgiTang

Good job... Yawn...

You're right, I'm wrong. You know better about my thought process than I do..

You're correct, I don't know your thought process because you're not adding anything more than drive-by posts like this one. Don't get mad at me just because I challenged what you said. It's on you to back up your thoughts. Have a real discussion or don't post anything.

[zyzz]

Last kick of the can with the Flames for Ortio. Hiller was crying earlier in the year about this being his contract year and not getting his show time. Here's your chance Hiller. Play lights out for the rest of the year and you'll get a nice contract somewhere.

[saillias]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Aside from the stats though I guess he was getting just lit up in practice. It looked bad.

And don't get me wrong, I was as disappointed as anyone not named Ortio. I really thought he was going to be the guy this season and fit like a glove with the young core.

Without him I'm a little worried on the goaltending front over the next 5 years.

I think that's part of the bias towards the guy from the fanbase. If he doesn't pan out, there's a big hole there.

Everyone wants the Flames to draft and develop a NHL caliber goalie. Starter? The Flames haven't even graduated a backup caliber guy in ages. The last was Curtis ****ing McElhinney.

[lazypucker]

Does the waiver rule still apply after the trade deadline?

[HelloHockeyFans]

Hartley will have faith in Hiller over Ortio, which is justified based on Hiller's experience in the NHL and Ortio's poor performance this year thus far. But I can see Hartley giving Ortio a chance if Hiller has a very poor outing, followed by a solid one by Ortio in relief. But Ortio needs to really seize the opportunity when given.

[wingmaker]

The constant griping about the ice time for marginal players and prospects is so over wrought on this site. I am luke warm on Hartley. I like that he is a teacher because of all the young players, but I think he has shown an inability to develop strategies to match different opponents. He definitely gets out coached many nights.

But the ice time thing...my god, people. Seriously. The NHL is not a development league. The AHL is a development league. It is not Hartley's job to develop anybody. Of course young players have to mature and can only improve at the NHL level with game time, and Hartley has gone out of his way to be patient in this way with the players that deserve it. But you have to deserve the spot first to get that patience, and for this you have to prove that you are MORE deserving than the established players on the team to get a shot. Nakladel, Ortio, Wotherspoon, etc...none of these players have done that. And no, it is not Hartley's job to gift them ice time on the NHL roster during a push to the playoffs to prove it one way or another. They prove it in practice, in the AHL, etc. And while it may seem difficult from the outside for a player like Nakladel to prove anything without being given game action, that really isn't Hartley's problem. He is the coach, and if he doesn't think Nakladel is better that Smid or Engelland, he is going to sit on the bench. If Nakladel goes to another organization next season because Hartley never feels confident in putting him into games, so be it. He is a 27 year old who had a decent year so far in the AHL. If the Flames lose him, they will move on.

For Ortio, if Ramo is out long term, he will probably get another start or two, barring the Flames making a trade for a goalie. But, if Hartley doesn't like what he sees in practice, and Poullen is brought up in his place, that is not Hartley's fault. It is not on Hartley to play Ortio. It is on Ortio to prove to the team and coaches that he can play and win at the NHL level. And guess what, Hartely is not alone in this. Management, assistant coaches are also watching practices and communicating with one another. If management really felt that the coach was mis-identifying the talents of his players, they would let him go. If Hartley is behind the bench, it is because he has the trust of the organization, and if a player wants to be on the ice, he has to win Hartley's trust. Plain and simple. Again, the pro level is not about development. If you as a fan want to watch young players and see how they're developing, follow an AHL team. Otherwise, this is called professional sports where you have to make the best of the chances you are afforded. For many players, chances come along once and never again. It's harsh but it is the nature of the beast when winning is worth millions of dollars.

[ricardodw]

Ortio will have a better defense in front of him (on paper anyway) than what Kipper had when he took over as a Flame.

Brodie-Gio-Hamilton-Russel-Smid-Engelland

Regher (1.25M)-Leopold(900k)-Warrener (1.8M)-Ferrence(500k)-Lydman(1.7M)-Gauthier(1.3M)

for Comparison purposes in 2003-04:

Iginla was making 7.5 for the Flames.

Detroits top d-men:

Lidstrom was Making 10M Schneider 3.75, Chelios 5.9, Hatcher 5M .


No Flames were in the top 60 paid d-men

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Ortio will have a better defense in front of him (on paper anyway) than what Kipper had when he took over as a Flame.

Brodie-Gio-Hamilton-Russel-Smid-Engelland

Regher (1.25M)-Leopold(900k)-Warrener (1.8M)-Ferrence(500k)-Lydman(1.7M)-Gauthier(1.3M)

for Comparison purposes in 2003-04:

Iginla was making 7.5 for the Flames.

Detroits top d-men:

Lidstrom was Making 10M Schneider 3.75, Chelios 5.9, Hatcher 5M .


No Flames were in the top 60 paid d-men

What relevance does salary have to do with anything when comparing the current defense group vs 2003/04? The 2003/04 my not have been offensively as good but they were better defensively as their defensive play played a large role in them getting to the cup finals. This current group doesn't sport a single shutdown defender.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

What relevance does salary have to do with anything when comparing the current defense group vs 2003/04? The 2003/04 my not have been offensively as good but they were better defensively as their defensive play played a large role in them getting to the cup finals. This current group doesn't sport a single shutdown defender.

No he's on to something ...

http://www.inthe80s.com/prices.shtml

This proves my Dad was a cheap #######. Milk only cost $1.60 in 1980 and we certainly weren't living like kings. Yet now I'm getting it done and Milk is costing me more than $4.

Where was he putting all the cash?

[dash_pinched]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Ortio will have a better defense in front of him (on paper anyway) than what Kipper had when he took over as a Flame.

Brodie-Gio-Hamilton-Russel-Smid-Engelland

Regher (1.25M)-Leopold(900k)-Warrener (1.8M)-Ferrence(500k)-Lydman(1.7M)-Gauthier(1.3M)

for Comparison purposes in 2003-04:

Iginla was making 7.5 for the Flames.

Detroits top d-men:

Lidstrom was Making 10M Schneider 3.75, Chelios 5.9, Hatcher 5M .


No Flames were in the top 60 paid d-men

Credit to dissentowner...

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by Toonage

I was on the high Ortio horse about him not getting a fair shot but I heard / read similar things. Poor in practice, not handling himself well off the ice (such as refusing the conditioning stint). Who knows what else was up during that time. He may have whined the entire time he was up for all we know.

If this was the case then I hope how Ramo handled himself is going to be his model this time around. Ramo was a professional, took the demotion, worked on the problems in his game and made the very best when he got another shot. I hope Ortio gets this and comes in ready to work. Its the difference between a real pro and just some kid riding on talent.

If he hasn't learned this lesson then there are a few goalies behind him chomping at the bit for a chance and I'll have no problems if they give it to them.

[saillias]

I take Ortio's side to refuse the conditioning stint. Why should he say yes sir with the Flames when they were just hawing and humming and trying to procrastinate a decision.

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by saillias

I take Ortio's side to refuse the conditioning stint. Why should he say yes sir with the Flames when they were just hawing and humming and trying to procrastinate a decision.

Because the Flames are his employer and he should be doing what they asked, not what he feels is best. I can't even imagine telling my boss, nah I don't want to do that report because I think you are just wasting my time.

[JJ1532]

Originally Posted by IgiTang

Well, no I'm not wrong.

Ferland with the top line.
Wideman playing all season pre-suspension
The goalie mess to start the year
Bennett not getting the PP time for half the year
Colborne...
Mason Raymond getting tons of PP time for the first half .
Healthy scratching Jooris for a spot for Raymond and/or Bollig

And so on...

I don't like what he's doing? Well thanks for being my brain, if you could go ahead and sort out the rest of my life so I don't have to think anymore, that would be awesome!

Hang on, Ferland was on the top line because he was the best/only option and deserved it.

Wideman has been demoted to the 3rd line. Why scratch him when you aren't exactly upgrading that bottom pair by icing Smid and Engellend instead. At least Wideman has it in his locker to produce, we know for a fact Smid and Engellend don't. I don't like the fact he hasn't been scratched and been given prominent PP minutes, but again, the alternative is hardly much better.

The goalie mess is Brads doing. I doubt Hartley was too happy about having 3 goalies on his roster to start the season.

Is Bennett on the PP Hartleys decision? Or does Gelinas have some input given he runs the special teams. Same with Raymond. And if Hartley is the one who decides who goes on the PP units, whilst I'll give you Bennett, we aren't exactly stacked with better options to replace Raymond. Yeah, our PP has shown signs of life recently, but everyone bar that top unit of forwards have been god awful.

Colborne has been regularly sat, given low ice time and even scratched this season. We aren't overflowing with options to replace him, so I think Hartley has done his best with Joe. I don't find his treatment of Joe to be strange.

Jooris plays with a lot of drive and energy, but mostly gets nothing done, which disappoints me given how effective he was for most of last season. After seeing his play this season, I'm not exactly desperate to see him in the line up every night. Who Bob ices on the 4th line every night is a minor quibble for me.

All in all, I can understand your gripes, but I don't think most of them defy logic. I can see Hartleys logic, even if I don't agree with it.