Discussion to turn 11th & 12th Ave. into two-way streets

[Temporary_User]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

I mean when a 7-11 closes down in the heart of the city...

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

I don't think that's related at all. Their corporate HQ, would not invest into that shop (among others), and staffing it was problematic.
You have two Macs stores within 5 blocks, and they do just fine, in less common areas.

If you are talking about the 7-11 on 17th and 5th St. that closed because the rent of the place was increased.
Like Cam noted though it really doesn't mean anything though because there are so many convenience stores in the area. There is a Shell with Timmies across the street and a few Mac's within a few blocks in all directions.

[browna]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

The good thing is that all of his ideas have happened in other cities - but what works in Vancouver may not work in Calgary - especially two streets downtown

2nd street SW from 12th Ave to 26 Ave converted to two way from one way 7-8 years ago, so it's not totally foreign here either.

[stampsx2]

Horrible idea.

It will increase congestion in the core, especially at rush hour. With more bike lanes being added, driving down there's getting worse and worse.

A few people said there's a lot of speeders on 11th and 12th ave. i find the opposite. I find people drive under the speed limit, usually they're lost or looking for something, holding up the flow of traffic. I haven't experienced much speeding at all on those streets, at least not during the day.

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by FlamesKickAss

dumb idea. this was part of his campaign platform apparently though.

It was a bit of an off-the-cuff comment by him that picked up steam. I talked to him quite a bit about this today and yesterday. If you listen to his interviews he says that 2 way conversions is just one possible way to look at improving such streets, which is really the goal. He does concur that it's not necessarily the solution. In any event I don't think it'll come forward, at least not anytime soon.

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

When the City decides on these sorts of things. What is the normal weighting of local R&C concerns vs local R&C ie commuters?

From the Citys perspective I would think pedestrian focus would be its number one concern and not commuters.

From someone who only uses the roads and area very infrequently the current posted speed limit is exceeded by quite a large margin at least the times I have been around the area.

It always weighs both. I do think you're right about speeding - that could be solved by narrowing lanes a bit. People drive to the speed they feel comfortable based on how the road is engineered. Tighter lanes do slow people (and have the benefit of allowing wider sidewalks).

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by hulkrogan

How about we start with the simple stuff, like actually putting sidewalks in along 10th avenue?

I find it embarassing that right in the core of our city you have to result to walking along mud trails to get anywhere.

Couldn't agree more. Did a lot of work in 2011 and 2012, including a presentation to Council members using 10th avenue and other corridors as a case study for the sorry state of some pedestrian infrastructure around downtown. Went through some pains to secure about a million dollars to fix the very worst of them. So in 2012 we had a program that put in at least a passable standard of sidewalk where they were completely missing (such as 10th between 1st and 2nd st SW). So at least most of the mud trails are now gone. These sidewalks will be further upgraded as part of corridor projects. One or two stretches may be left, but those are locations where redevelopment projects are imminent.

We also changed policy related to pedestrian infrastructure - scrapping the ongoing pedestrian overpass program. It got $5 million annually while places like Downtown and Beltline (Centre City) where people walk a lot got nothing. That money mostly got transferred to Centre City, which is funding projects like the 1st street SW and 8th Street SW underpass projects this year. In 8th's case the first phase of the overall corridor upgrade. Between 1st and 8th the underpasses carry about 20,000 pedestrians a day, while many over the overpasses carry 100-150 per day. The policy change was "redirecting pedestrian infrastructure investment to places of high use and high potential"

That's not to say we won't build overpasses where needed, they just don't have an automatic $5 million annually. They will be part of normal prioritization of transportation projects.

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by GGG

The worst part of this idea is that if it is implemented it would include all of the other things Bunk mentions, Streetscaping, wide sidewalks, etc. Then it would be a success, not because of the 1/2way issue but because of all the other things that were added. Then it would be used as a blue print to remove one way streets. Instead just narrow up the lanes a little bit and people will drive slower, also add pedestrian islands at intersections to slow dow traffic as well. If traffic speed is the issue, address traffic speed not direction.

I find it interesting that the report Bunk quotes states "Buinesses feel that 2 way is better for business" rather than actaully study whether or not this is the case. I don't really care if someone feels its better. It either is better or isn't. I know I would perfer 10th ave to be 1 way around MEC just to make getting in and out of the parking lot easier.

In a lot of ways eliminating left turns make it easier to get in and out of businesses parking lots. And once you are an experienced one-way street user getting to a place on a 1 way street is quite easy.

The real issue is speed and comfort of pedestrian. When a road is prioritized for vehicle it often means a lot of space for vehicle and little for pedestrian. With a wide roadway and one way traffic, speed is a factor. Couple that with (usually) crummy narrow sidewalks and retail does very poorly. That's all to say that retail can be successful on one-way streets, but only if vehicle speed is managed (tightened lanes) and pedestrian space is of good enough quality.

[frinkprof]

I'm on the Beltline Transportation Committee. Don't have time for an in-depth response right now but will try to get to it tomorrow or over the weekend.

Can't say our position deviates much from what Bunk says above, although we are probably slightly more bullish on the idea than the tone if his posts might indicate, at least in part due to some of the history if the idea and some of the upsides. I'll try to get to that later. Getting a study for it is a necessary and important first step that, at the very least would bring to light a host of other issues in the area and some options and alternatives to consider. That's one of the biggest things for us at this stage, just getting some things looked at via a study.

The timing of this recent resurfacing of the issue took us a little by surprise as well - even though we did know that Coun. Woolley had it in his campaign.

Hulkrogan, rest assured that sidewalk improvements in the community are very high on our priority list. A couple years ago, we completed a "pedestrian audit" that evaluated every block of sidewalk in the community based on criteria developed for a similar exercise in Melbourne. To no one's surprise, many sidewalks and streetscapes in the community are in abysmal shape, with nearly all of 10th Avenue falling into some variation of unsafe, unsatisfactory or even non-existent. The processes and practices by which sidewalks and pedestrian environments see attention, repair or upgrade in this area are ineffective and broken. We are pushing to bring light to this and get the situation improved (Edit: although Bunk's work through the Mayor's office in the last couple years as discussed in his above posts is very much appreciated, noted and some good first steps).

All that said, it isn't necessarily an either/or thing with sidewalk improvements and the 11th/12th Avenue issue (or improving problem intersections or improving transit service in this area or a bunch of the other things we have been looking into). There ought to be several improvements happening at the same time.

More later.