10-25-2013, 01:18 AM
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#41
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In the Sin Bin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strombad
Scott should be suspended and all that, it was a careless hit, but people should tread a little lighter in the trashing of the actual player. I mean, we have TWO "John Scott"'s in Jackman and McGrattan, the only difference being that one of them is great in the locker room.
Let's be honest, Jackman has JUST delivered both a headshot and a butt-end with his stick, and I didn't hear too many people shouting "There's no place for him in hockey!". A little perspective is all.
It's not like Scott is known for this trash, he's just a low talent enforcer, without a history of being any 'dirtier' than Jackman.
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Scott and McGrattan are enforcers.
Jackman is just a 4th line grinder who's fought when the Flames didn't have anybody else to step up. He's not really a great fighter and he's not a goon. He's just a meat and potatoes hard nosed grinder. Bouma is a similar player IMO.
Different types of players in my opinion.
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10-25-2013, 01:40 AM
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#42
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Chicago Native relocated to the stinking desert of Utah
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Scott is a low talent "enforcer"...and has never had supplemental discipline...it WAS an ill advised hit, but given his history, and having watched him in Chicago for a few years, I really don't believe that it was a conscious attempt to injure...Scott was just too slow and clumsy to miss Eriksson once Scott started bearing down on him.
the irony here, is that if Lucic hadn't run Miller in 2011, the Blades probably don't go out to get an enforcer like Scott...the complaint among their fans back then was that the team was too "soft"
I can't see wasting roster spots on guys that only get a couple minutes per game...but, for whatever reason, guys like Scott still make NHL rosters.
__________________
"If the wine's not good enough for the cook, the wine's not good enough for the dish!" - Julia Child (goddess of the kitchen)
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10-25-2013, 02:20 AM
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#43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strombad
We sure do.
As Resolute pointed out, Scott plays more than either of those guys, and Jackman had more fights last year. Scott plays gritty and hard-nosed, just like Grats, and has only had 1 fight this season.
I'm just not seeing the major difference that you're seeing. These guys are all essentially the same player.
I love Grats too, but let's have a little dose of reality.
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McGrattan has neither grabbed another team's star for an involuntary fight nor taken a run at another star for a cheap head shot. We are perhaps too distracted by TOI and perceived role than what these guys do with those few minutes.
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10-25-2013, 07:49 AM
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#44
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: California
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The reason you dont need to punish a star as much as a plug is that the star has more to lose. If a star plays dirty people will cheap shot him back. If a goon plays dirty he just fights oncevand spends the game on the bench.
I like the double standard or even triple standard between plugs, average players the Ovechkin/pronger all stars.
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10-25-2013, 08:09 AM
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#45
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Lifetime Suspension
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher
Scott and McGrattan are enforcers.
Jackman is just a 4th line grinder who's fought when the Flames didn't have anybody else to step up. He's not really a great fighter and he's not a goon. He's just a meat and potatoes hard nosed grinder. Bouma is a similar player IMO.
Different types of players in my opinion.
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Well, as a 4th line grinder and not as a goon, he plays less than Scott and had more fights than Scott last year. We can nitpick, but if your definition of enforcer is the same as most, Jackman has played that role more than Scott has recently.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache
McGrattan has neither grabbed another team's star for an involuntary fight nor taken a run at another star for a cheap head shot. We are perhaps too distracted by TOI and perceived role than what these guys do with those few minutes.
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Or perhaps we are too distracted by unique situations. McGrattan hasn't shown to have much of a dirty side to him any time recently, but Jackman has as many times as Scott has. Unique situations do not make them all different or the same, my point is that their play away from these one-off situations is what makes them the same. Plus, we can go over the Scott/Kessel thing again, but Scott never touched Kessel, he simply dropped his gloves and was ready to go.
I'm not defending Scott here, to be clear, but I am saying that if we want to get out players LIKE Scott, we should be prepared to lose Grats and Jackman. They might not be the same by a particular definition, but they have the same role on the team and are depended on in the exact same ways. It's great being Flames fans and thinking that our guys aren't like THAT guy, but they are. As I said before, Jackman fights more than Scott, and just the season has delivered a headshot and used his stick as a weapon. IMO, completely classless, and that whole general "type" of player really has no place in hockey.
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10-25-2013, 05:00 PM
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#46
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Often Thinks About Pickles
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Okotoks
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Everybody wants a player like Bob Probert... unfortunately most teams end up with John Scott and the like.
I think they should change the rule for fighting.
Edit : Start handing out game suspensions for fighting and the more you fight the longer the suspension.
Do you see where I'm going?
Edit: Eventually, the goons who's only purpose it to fight, will all be serving suspensions.... or no longer playing in the nhl
Last edited by Rerun; 10-27-2013 at 10:04 AM.
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10-25-2013, 05:26 PM
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#47
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In the Sin Bin
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Yes, you are going somewhere incredibly stupid.
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10-26-2013, 01:21 AM
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#48
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Sunshine Coast
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The thing is for those trying to get rid of players like Scott is that you don't see Lucic running Miller anymore.
One thing is maybe Erikksson pulled some crap earlier and didn't think he'd have to answer for it since he doesn't fight and has good back up. If so, maybe now he knows better. I'm not saying this happened but it happens enough around the league with no repercussions.
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10-26-2013, 07:19 AM
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#49
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by codynw
Good. He sucks and should have no place in the NHL.
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What does Scott sucking have to do with the incident and his punishment? Would it be a more acceptable hit if it was Lukic on Bouma?
Scott doesn't have any history of headshots, and I don't think he's been suspended before. I'm okay with him being suspended indefinitely, so long as that's what any player who made that hit would be handed. Sadly, justice in the NHL is mainly about the relative standing of the players in the league's pecking order, rather than the action itself.
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10-26-2013, 08:30 AM
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#50
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I believe in the Pony Power
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcan
The thing is for those trying to get rid of players like Scott is that you don't see Lucic running Miller anymore.
One thing is maybe Erikksson pulled some crap earlier and didn't think he'd have to answer for it since he doesn't fight and has good back up. If so, maybe now he knows better. I'm not saying this happened but it happens enough around the league with no repercussions.
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Yet dirty plays still happen. So the presence of enforcers isn't even solving that. And if Erikksson had done anything there would be video of it.
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10-26-2013, 08:56 AM
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#51
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Lifetime Suspension
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lethbridge
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffFletcher
What does Scott sucking have to do with the incident and his punishment? Would it be a more acceptable hit if it was Lukic on Bouma?
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For me it would be more acceptable.
The only reason that Scott hasn't been suspended before is because he is lucky and the NHL has moronic rules when it comes to suspensions.
He should have got the biggest suspension from the Kessel/Clarkson incident and even without a suspension the league should clearly use that as another example of him going out to hurt a smaller, skilled guy illegally.
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10-26-2013, 09:43 AM
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#52
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Franchise Player
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If the league got rid of the 20-30 players like Scott, do you think there would be fewer concussions and career-ending injuries? I don't. Stars like Lukic, Ovechkin, and Phaneuf are fully capable of blind-side hits to the head.
Until the NHL really gets that this is about behaviour demonstrated by about a third of the players in the league, including big stars, the head shots aren't going away.
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10-26-2013, 01:42 PM
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#53
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#1 Goaltender
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Calgary
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get rid of the fourth line period. allow teams three full lines plus a spare.
No guys that only play 5 minutes or less a night.
__________________
GO FLAMES GO
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10-26-2013, 02:33 PM
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#54
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Calgary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edn88
get rid of the fourth line period. allow teams three full lines plus a spare.
No guys that only play 5 minutes or less a night.
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Why would the NHLPA be interested to allow NHL to eliminate 90 plus jobs?
Game is fine IMO, fighting is no issue. The amount of fights is way down.
Flames for example have had very few.
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10-27-2013, 02:45 AM
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#55
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Sunshine Coast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JiriHrdina
Yet dirty plays still happen. So the presence of enforcers isn't even solving that. And if Erikksson had done anything there would be video of it.
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Yeah, dirty plays still happen but not to the extent they do when a team doesn't have an enforcer. Our goalies don't get run near as much with McGratten around and I'm good with that.
Get rid of the instigator rule and the enforcers can do their job even better.
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10-27-2013, 08:31 AM
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#56
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I believe in the Pony Power
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcan
Yeah, dirty plays still happen but not to the extent they do when a team doesn't have an enforcer. Our goalies don't get run near as much with McGratten around and I'm good with that.
Get rid of the instigator rule and the enforcers can do their job even better.
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How often does Detroit get run? They never have a goon or enforcer.
It is the leagues job to enforce the rules, not goons.
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10-27-2013, 09:58 AM
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#57
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Lifetime Suspension
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JiriHrdina
How often does Detroit get run? They never have a goon or enforcer.
It is the leagues job to enforce the rules, not goons.
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To be fair, Detroit implements the method of "pest/bruiser" to control that side of the game. Much like the Canucks for quite a while. Instead of having a goon, you have an equally useless pest, but you also have one or two guys who are absolute punishers, just in case things get out of hand.
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10-27-2013, 10:41 AM
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#58
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Calgary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JiriHrdina
How often does Detroit get run? They never have a goon or enforcer.
It is the leagues job to enforce the rules, not goons.
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Sure they have, Bob Probert and Joey Kocur but the key difference Wings had enforcers who were good players.
Remember Jordan Tootoo is with the Wings right now, he is a fighter.
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10-27-2013, 12:16 PM
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#59
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Scoring Winger
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Syracuse, NY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JiriHrdina
How often does Detroit get run? They never have a goon or enforcer.
It is the leagues job to enforce the rules, not goons.
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Yeah. It's not like Betuzzi's ever crippled someone or anything like that.
__________________
...Rob
The American Dream isn't an SUV and a house in the suburbs;
it's Don't Tread On Me.
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10-27-2013, 12:41 PM
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#60
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I believe in the Pony Power
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flambers
Sure they have, Bob Probert and Joey Kocur but the key difference Wings had enforcers who were good players.
Remember Jordan Tootoo is with the Wings right now, he is a fighter.
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That goes back to the era before their recent consistent success. I don't consider Tootoo an enforcer plus I think they would dearly love to be rid of him
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