Can no immunization = No Preschool?

[Thor]

I will say there seems to be less of these people not vaccinating than a few years ago, but the bad news is it seems their new paranoia is GM foods.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Canuck-Hater

Parents should have the right to decide if they want their kids to be vaccinated. Period.

Should a parent be allowed to deny their child medical care because of their religious beliefs?

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by To Be Quite Honest

One of the interesting pieces of evidence that get ignored consistently with the rapid decline of disease in the last century which is when cities made upgrades to waste removal (sewers). It makes sense because most of these diseases polio, small pox, tetanus (tet - anus; he he he), for example, are only transported through fecal matter. I believe these types of vaccines are not as important (necessary) as airborne ones.

I also believe that pharmaceuticals are working hard to create better injections that do not include the scary elements that bring fear into the parents of children. Which is another plus.

Because my 3 year old always gets every piece of fecal matter off his hands when he washes.

Originally Posted by JonDuke

Thanks for all the replies, both pro and con vaccines. Again...I'm not here to make the debate on whether my decision is right or if you're wrong. I'm here simply to see if a school can legally deny access to a child who had not been immunized.

Also...I believe herd immunity is a theory. Not fact.

Thanks again for the responses!

A school (k-12) can't for sure. A private business, like a pre-school, likely has every right.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by JonDuke

Also...I believe herd immunity is a theory. Not fact.

That is so cute that you phrase it like that.

Originally Posted by Thor

Should a parent be allowed to deny their child medical care because of their religious beliefs?

Yeah I love reading about all those Jehova kids dying horrible deaths because of their parents.

[Minnie]

Me and my kid with an autoimmune disease thank you for not vaccinating.




































That was sarcasm, in case you were theorizing otherwise.

[ernie]

Originally Posted by Thor

I will say there seems to be less of these people not vaccinating than a few years ago, but the bad news is it seems their new paranoia is GM foods.

It's what happens when certain circles experience outbreaks of potentially fatal diseases that they assumed no longer existed (measles, whooping cough etc). Not long ago there were various pockets of these diseases throughout the states and it was all centered amongst the no vaccination communities. The virus still exist and by not vaccinating people allow them to take hold again which quite honestly is just plain old irresponsible stupidity. The reason it is important is because a vaccination does not make every single person immune, nor does the medical community say they do. But they make enough people immune that transmission doesn't occur nearly as readily if at all.

It's not coincidence that as vaccination rates have decreased the rate of these diseases has increased. It's quite simply not theory. It's fact.

[burn_this_city]

I have a theory, you and your wife are foolish people who are willfully endangering your children.

[ResAlien]

Originally Posted by Canuck-Hater

Parents should have the right to decide if they want their kids to be vaccinated. Period.

Sure and if you chose not to you can home school your little preventable disease factory and not endanger the children of people who aren't idiots.

[Jimmy Stang]

Originally Posted by JonDuke

I don't want to turn this into a tinfoil hat thread at all, but I simply do not trust vaccines. If I say that, can they deny admission for our son?

What in particular do you not trust about vaccines? The autism link has long been discredited.

Ultimately the decision is up to you, but I would strongly encourage you to do further research from credible sources. My mother-in-law send my wife and I an email after the birth of our son, and it was full of misinformation, conspiracy theories, and pseudo-science references. This can be quite alarming to new parents, but it is more important now than it ever has been to analyze the information and make an informed decision.

If you stick to credible sources, you'll soon realize that the risk of autism is simply non existent, there is no conspiracy by doctors, scientists, the Illuminati, (insert conspiracy theory of the day here), etc., and there is a very good reason why people live longer than ever before: because preventable diseases are being prevented.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by JonDuke

Also...I believe herd immunity is a theory. Not fact.

[Canada 02]

facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them.

In science "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional consent."

- S. Gould

[To Be Quite Honest]

Originally Posted by Thor

Neat info chart on the deaths of the last century, especially the infectious diseases.



The graph

Spoiler!

From http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skept...b_source=pubv1

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/131/2/401S.full.pdf

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/hs/pubhe...2/mckinlay.pdf

Sanitation vs Vaccination

http://www.archive.org/stream/leices...ge/n7/mode/2up

epub copy download

For the record, I'm not advocating the "Don't Vaccinate - fear fear!" side of the argument. I am, however, downplaying it's actual importance.

[To Be Quite Honest]

Originally Posted by firebug

Not true with small pox, whooping cough and many of the other commonly vaccinated diseases.

Smallpox

Transmission occurs through inhalation of airborne variola virus, usually droplets expressed from the oral, nasal, or pharyngeal mucosa of an infected person. It is transmitted from one person to another primarily through prolonged face-to-face contact with an infected person, usually within a distance of 6 feet (1.8 m), but can also be spread through direct contact with infected bodily fluids or contaminated objects (fomites) such as bedding or clothing.

Fair enough. I didn't look it up I just wrote it. My fault.

[Knut]

These threads make me face-palm so hard i get finger impressions on my forehead.

It is like my buddy who called me "Stupid" for having my kid vaccinated. I have realized you can't fight stupid... you just face-palm and move on.

[Flamesoholic]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

I have a theory, you and your wife are foolish people who are willfully endangering your children.

And OUR children

[Minnie]

Are you askurred your kid is going to 'catch teh gay' if you have them vaccinated?

[evman150]

Unfortunately, this is one of those times where "stupid" causes deaths.

Unlike the young Earth creationists (and other people of this ilk), this stupidity literally kills people.

[Minnie]

[billybob123]

Originally Posted by firebug

Not true with small pox, whooping cough and many of the other commonly vaccinated diseases.

Smallpox

Transmission occurs through inhalation of airborne variola virus, usually droplets expressed from the oral, nasal, or pharyngeal mucosa of an infected person. It is transmitted from one person to another primarily through prolonged face-to-face contact with an infected person, usually within a distance of 6 feet (1.8 m), but can also be spread through direct contact with infected bodily fluids or contaminated objects (fomites) such as bedding or clothing.

Nor tetanus, which doesn't replicate in mammals so isn't fecal-oral transmission.

Mumps, influenza, measles, rubella, meningitis (viral or bacterial), pneumonococcal, varicella (chicken pox) - none of these are spread fecal-orally.

And can cause serious issues if vaccine penetration in populations are not complete. There have been several mumps outbreaks in North America and Europe in the past 5 years.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by To Be Quite Honest

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/131/2/401S.full.pdf

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/hs/pubhe...2/mckinlay.pdf

Sanitation vs Vaccination

http://www.archive.org/stream/leices...ge/n7/mode/2up

epub copy download

For the record, I'm not advocating the "Don't Vaccinate - fear fear!" side of the argument. I am, however, downplaying it's actual importance.

Sorry this is an old canard by anti vaxxers, while there is of course improvement to health because of more sanitary practices, there is of course no doubt vaccinations and better medical breakthroughs are mostly to thank.

One example of such a myth is the claim that “vaccines didn’t save us,” also sometimes going under the claim that “vaccines don’t work.” The anti-vaccine website Vaccine Liberation has a large set of graphs purporting to show that the death rates of several vaccine-preventable diseases, including whooping cough, diptheria, measles, and polio were falling before the vaccines for each disease were introduced. The the article quotes Andrew Weil:

Scientific medicine has taken credit it does not deserve for some advances in health. Most people believe that victory over the infectious diseases of the last century came with the invention of immunisations. In fact, cholera, typhoid, tetanus, diphtheria and whooping cough, etc, were in decline before vaccines for them became available – the result of better methods of sanitation, sewage disposal, and distribution of food and water.

Bill Maher has said similar things about vaccines, and the “vaccines didn’t save us” gambit has become a staple of anti-vaccine websites. For example, one particularly ignorant blogger (URL Removed – Malware -webmaster) wrote:

The mythology surrounding vaccines is still pervasive, the majority of the population still believes, in faith like fashion, that vaccines are the first line of defense against disease. The true story is that nutrition and psychological/emotional health are the first line of defense against disease.

Vaccines are a concoction of chemical adjuvants and preservatives coupled with virus fragments and have clearly been implicated in the astounding rise in neurological disorders around the world, yet the ‘popular’ media has embedded itself as a spokesperson for the pharmaceutical cartel and simply does not report in any responsible way the real situation.

Ah, yes, the “toxins” gambit! Of course, it is true that better sanitation is a good thing and has decreased the rate of transmission of some diseases for which sanitation can do so, many infectious diseases are transmitted person-to-person through the air from aerosolized drops of saliva from coughs and sneezes or from being deposited on objects that people touch frequently, like doorknobs and other fomites.

The “vaccines didn’t save us” strategy is a distortion, as I will show. The best way to demonstrate this is to go on to the very first website that currently shows up on a Google search for “vaccines didn’t save us.” Although the post is from November, it’s the main post that’s been spreading this lie since then. Entitled Proof That Vaccines Didn’t Save Us, it’s one of the most breathtakingly spectacularly intellectually dishonest bits of anti-vaccine propaganda that I’ve ever seen. I say that not because it uses a common anti-vaccine distortion, but rather because it ups the ante by adding a new one clearly designed to address the criticism of the old one. That new distortion hides it in plain sight, too, which is why I have to give the blogger props for sheer chutzpah. Actually, I have to give some backhanded kudos to the person who devised the graphs used in this post, Raymond Obomsawin, PhD. They represent the classic anti-vaccine lie, combined with some very clever cherry picking. I won’t take them all on in this post. Maybe I’ll take some of them on in a future post. In the meantime, what I will do is to take on the first several, because they represent a common anti-vaccine theme that is very similar to the one sounded by the this disingenuous post.

In fact, let’s look at the Vaccination Library claims first. Notice that there are six graphs, four of which are for vaccine-preventable diseases for which widespread vaccination was undertaken, two for which it was not. All of them show decreasing death rates from various diseases. Wow! It seems like slam dunk evidence, doesn’t it? Vaccines didn’t save us! After all, death rates were declining years before the vaccine, and they were declining for the diseases that didn’t even need a vaccine!

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...ts-most-naked/