Mass. judge orders taxpayer-funded sex change operation for convicted murderer

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Badger Bob

...

The point of this thread is that taxpayers were being forced to pay for a convicted MURDERER. We could hazard a guess that even a few liberals in Massachusetts might have issues with footing the bill, after feeding and housing him/her/it for over 2 decades. Further, since again, you probably didn't read the article, insurance companies haven't even footed the bill for these surgeries as they're considered elective.

Meantime, if you and the OP want to discuss in a civil manner, we can keep going. If not, then whatever happens, happens.

I didn't notice a thread about inmate X who had his appendix removed in prison, or Inmate Y who was stitched up after being shanked in the shower, or Inmate Z who had to have facial reconstruction done when he was beaten so badly his face caved in. If your concern is about the taxpayers footing the bill for all medical procedures for inmates, I totally understand, and agree with you. If someone outside of prison would have to pay for it, why wouldn't an inmate?

However, since I didn't see any threads like that, I am guessing the reasoning isn't quite the same as mine is.

[Badger Bob]

Originally Posted by Rathji

I didn't notice a thread about inmate X who had his appendix removed in prison, or Inmate Y who was stitched up after being shanked in the shower, or Inmate Z who had to have facial reconstruction done when he was beaten so badly his face caved in. If your concern is about the taxpayers footing the bill for all medical procedures for inmates, I totally understand, and agree with you. If someone outside of prison would have to pay for it, why wouldn't an inmate?

However, since I didn't see any threads like that, I am guessing the reasoning isn't quite the same as mine is.

Are those examples really the same though? It's for this particular situation only.

If the inmate, described in the article, was a law-abiding citizen, the cost would be completely his own responsibility. As indicated in the article, insurance wouldn't cover it. Somebody else may have mentioned the "pre-existing condition" aspect, which may or may not be relevent. Now, whether it's "medically necessary" is absolutely open for debate. Of course psychiatrists are going to consider it so, to justify their positions.

In this particular situation, it established a legal precendent.

[Badger Bob]

Originally Posted by wittynickname

I really love how being "PC" is an insult. Being "politically correct" is basically just saying you're going to try not to be a dick and offend people on purpose. Being PC just means that you are empathetic and sympathetic to the people around you. This isn't a bad thing.

It wasn't intended as an insult. The usage that you're referring to is to colloquial expression, indicating to prevent insulting somebody with sensitive feelings. Its actual meaning is related to a set of (Extreme left wing/Marxist) viewpoints unleashed on colleges/universities during the early 90's. It was also disseminated in Hollywood, the mainstream news media and various other cultural/social institutions.

It might be a stetch to consider it being emphathetic and sympathetic, as they're mutually exclusive. We've seen examples of PC people who aren't too open to different viewpoints. Then, even "tolerance" has its limits.

Now, back to the topic at hand...

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Badger Bob

Are those examples really the same though? It's for this particular situation only.

If the inmate, described in the article, was a law-abiding citizen, the cost would be completely his own responsibility. As indicated in the article, insurance wouldn't cover it. Somebody else may have mentioned the "pre-existing condition" aspect, which may or may not be relevent. Now, whether it's "medically necessary" is absolutely open for debate. Of course psychiatrists are going to consider it so, to justify their positions.

In this particular situation, it established a legal precendent.

Of course they are the same.

They are all medical procedures agreed upon as treatments for properly diagnosed medical conditions.

[SeoulFire]

Don't think I ever did get the answer to this before the other thread was shut down - why is this condition unique in relation to other dysphoria/bdd? Why do doctors think that in this one case it is appropriate to bring the body to the mind but in all others (correct me if I am mistaken) the mind to the body?

Lchoy,

What exactly do you mean by "biological gender". That makes no sense to me. (very interesting post btw)

[Badger Bob]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Of course they are the same.

They are all medical procedures agreed upon as treatments for properly diagnosed medical conditions.

Appendicitis affects normal human funtioning. The other examples that you mentioned were trauma-based. In this instance, the inmate has been receiving female hormones and counseling to convince him that his gender was misassigned. Wonder if he thought that over 22 years ago, before he got married?

Nothing's preventing him, in his current state, from normal human functioning, and he certainly hasn't experienced any physical trauma. As for these medical professionals, of course they're going to take that stance. With the surgery costing $20,000, somebody stands to make a few bucks from a few hours of work.

Bet you could just as easliy find other physicians who'd shake their heads in disbelief. So, in effect, it still comes down to opinion. Then you factor in that a legal precedent was not established until half-way through 2012. Gee, how did Western Civilization advance without gender-confused inmates receiving taxpayer-funded sex change operations until now?

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Badger Bob

Appendicitis affects normal human funtioning. The other examples that you mentioned were trauma-based. In this instance, the inmate has been receiving female hormones and counseling to convince him that his gender was misassigned. Wonder if he thought that over 22 years ago, before he got married?

Nothing's preventing him, in his current state, from normal human functioning, and he certainly hasn't experienced any physical trauma. As for these medical professionals, of course they're going to take that stance. With the surgery costing $20,000, somebody stands to make a few bucks from a few hours of work.

Bet you could just as easliy find other physicians who'd shake their heads in disbelief. So, in effect, it still comes down to opinion. Then you factor in that a legal precedent was not established until half-way through 2012. Gee, how did Western Civilization advance without gender-confused inmates receiving taxpayer-funded sex change operations until now?

Uh, it's quite possible. Gender identity and sexual orientation are two different things. A male can want and have SRS and still be attracted to women. I guess she would than be classified as a lesbian.

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Uh, it's quite possible. Gender identity and sexual orientation are two different things. A male can want and have SRS and still be attracted to women. I guess she would than be classified as a lesbian.

I shouldn't even wade into this rats nest but let me get this straight. The guy feels that he is a woman trapped in a mans body but is still attracted to women so the man feels that he is a lesbian trapped in a mans body? give me a break. No way the taxpayer should be on the hook for this.

Especially since the person is a convicted killer and is getting free health care while taxpayers are getting less. Ridiculous.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Weiser Wonder

Healthcare is a right to inmates. This is proper healthcare. She is an inmate. End of story.

Also #### the raging bigots in this thread.

Originally Posted by Weiser Wonder

Why do you think your opinion is meaningful or valuable in a topic you know nothing about?

It's really simple. There is consensus in the medical community about gender dysphoria being a legitimate disorder and genital surgery as an effective treatment.

There's just all this baggage and dogma attached to gender in our society that people get all freaked out by something that's rather simple.

I think we are all better than allowing dogma to get in the way of helping people get the medical care they need.

Originally Posted by Weiser Wonder

A childish non-sensical one-liner because you don't want an actual conversation about what works and what doesn't based on evidence and human experience. Sorry to ruin your backward ass circlejerk.

Originally Posted by Weiser Wonder

Laughable immaturity on your part.

You know people might be more inclined to listen to your viewpoint on this issue if you didn't insult them just because they disagree with you.

Originally Posted by Jacks

I shouldn't even wade into this rats nest but let me get this straight. The guy feels that he is a woman trapped in a mans body but is still attracted to women so the man feels that he is a lesbian trapped in a mans body? give me a break. No way the taxpayer should be on the hook for this.

Especially since the person is a convicted killer and is getting free health care while taxpayers are getting less. Ridiculous.

I think a lot of people are forgetting that we're talking about a convicted murderer here. Far as I'm concerned he deserves nothing. Just a cell to rot away for the rest of his life.

[Weiser Wonder]

Originally Posted by Azure

You know people might be more inclined to listen to your viewpoint on this issue if you didn't insult them just because they disagree with you.



I think a lot of people are forgetting that we're talking about a convicted murderer here. Far as I'm concerned he deserves nothing. Just a cell to rot away for the rest of his life.

Willfully trying to harm a put upon minority will always garner extreme disrespect from me. Dialog is only possible when her identity is respected. Nothing else is acceptable.

[LChoy]

Wow, didn't expect people to read my post

Seoulfire:
1. I'm not a medical professional, I just did a lot of research into the literature to come up with briefing notes, so these are just my best opinions.
To answer your first question, I think gender disorder just has a larger body of evidence, and seemingly more common than in the other types of dysphoria you are thinking of (be it all of these disorders are still exceeding rare in the population). I'm sure if it can be shown that people suffering from amputee syndrome (sorry, I can't think of the correct term right now) were suffering from similar rates of depression and suicides, maybe the policy for surgical interventions would be similar.

2. I was referring to Biological gender as the body type the patient was, but maybe it isn't the best term. For this individual, there was a difference between the body (in a man's body) and the brain (female identifying brain).

3. Gender is a a developing field and terms and the science will continue to change. I hesitated in using "biological gender" since even what makes one a man or a woman can be a little complicated. Traditionally, chromosomal XX = Woman, XY=Man. However, there are XXY people (usually born male) and X (usually born women). There are people that have androgen insensitivity, so they are born XY, but because their bodies don't respond to testosterone and developed as women instead. I guess the easy way would be determine a person by their reproductive parts.

4. The problem with determining gender that way though is what the French has shown, and is being backed up by other scientist. When you take a cross section of the brain from a transsexual person and compared it with the cross section of a man and a woman's brain, the transsexual brain much more closely resembles a female brain than the male one, despite being born XY and having all the male parts. What this tells us is that for these people, their brains are literally hardwired differently than their cis-gendered peers

5. Hence the debate, is it a brain issue or a body issue? In my opinion, it's probably a genetic thing and the brain is wired as female, and the body develops as male. You can't fix the neural wiring, so the next best thing after therapy is the physical option. I would imagine that is there was a magic pill that would re-write the brain to the proper body gender, these gender dysphoria patients would definitely take it over invasive surgeries and chemical rebalancing

6. The other interesting thing is that gender and sexuality are 2 different things. Transsexuals are usually attracted to the opposite gender they choose to be (Male to Female would be attracted to men, and vice versa) but that is not always the case.

Badger Bob:
7. I'm not as familiar as the US health system so I may be mistaken. I would expect if John Bobbit got it sliced, and went to the emergency room right away, the surgeons would re-attach it as part of his emergency surgery. The bill would then go to his insurance or to him if he didn't have any.
If he decided a time later that he needed an artificial one, it would no longer be emergency and cosmetic, and I guess it really depends on his insurance if they cover it or not. For prisoners, like in Canada, their health care is covered by the state and they are insured by the state. In this case, she was she successfully had her treatments covered by the states including the final operation as she was able to document that it's a legitimate procedure. As a civilian on private insurance, I can see how that might not be fair, but such the way the system works. In theory here, a prison is covered by the Federal system rather than provincial, and they can have much faster access to MRIs and other procedures. In fact, I think there already has been a Canadian precedent where a prisoner got SRS while serving a jail sentence.

8. I think you got the counsellor and the patient confused , it's the patient that has to convince the counsellor that they are living in the room gender and to be given treatment to transition into their new gender. Transition is not something just anyone can do (well not medically transition, as I suppose anyone can just start living in the other gender if they wanted to, just not with hormones and surgeries). In fact, for these people, more often than not, it involves the complete destruction of their family life, their careers, and social life. However, that's something they are willing to risk to finally be able to be themselves.

8. With such a stigma and the risks that come with gender issues, are you surprised that people wait until so late in life to transition? Transsexual have literally hit the breaking point that they either transition, or they do something detrimental. There are people who get married, join the army, try to be a manly man, all to try to suppress these feelings of wanting to be a woman. Many who transition would say that it was the first time they ever felt like they can be themselves

9. As for precedent, I really don't think there will be a rush of prisoner getting SRS

LChoy

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Weiser Wonder

Willfully trying to harm a put upon minority will always garner extreme disrespect from me. Dialog is only possible when her identity is respected. Nothing else is acceptable.

We're talking about a convicted murderer here, right? Oh the irony.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Weiser Wonder

Willfully trying to harm a put upon minority will always garner extreme disrespect from me. Dialog is only possible when her identity is respected. Nothing else is acceptable.

I never willingly meant to harm the LGBT group. I don't believe I am a bigot.

I am simply against seeing a person who took the life of another get free cosmetic (by definition) surgery.

Somebody who didn't commit murder would not be given a free ride, so why should this individual?

[Red Potato Standing By]

Originally Posted by Weiser Wonder

Willfully trying to harm a put upon minority will always garner extreme disrespect from me. Dialog is only possible when her identity is respected. Nothing else is acceptable.

So is she going to die if she doesn't get the change?

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Azure

We're talking about a convicted murderer here, right? Oh the irony.

Yes we are, but not one complaint about medical procedures other murderers get, so that is obviously not the issue that is the OP wished to discuss.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Yes we are, but not one complaint about medical procedures other murderers get, so that is obviously not the issue that is the OP wished to discuss.

If you can show me a story of a convicted killer having the government pay for his/her nose job, I'd love to see it.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Zethrynn

So is she going to die if she doesn't get the change?

Suicide rates are about 3times higher for people with GID than the general population, so quite possibly.

Either way there is real pain and torrment. In the same way that surgery for back pain could be considered a real alternative, along with other treatments like Chiropractic, Physio, massage, etc. it's not like your life is in danger if your back is sore, but it would severely reduce your quality of life.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Yes we are, but not one complaint about medical procedures other murderers get, so that is obviously not the issue that is the OP wished to discuss.

I'm pretty sure any thread about something like this would be met with the same response.

Because you know, for the 5th time, we ARE talking about a CONVICTED murderer here.

Just in case that part was missed.

Someone who murders a fellow human being does not deserve ANYTHING other than the bare minimum.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Suicide rates are about 3times higher for people with GID than the general population, so quite possibly.

Either way there is real pain and torrment. In the same way that surgery for back pain could be considered a real alternative, along with other treatments like Chiropractic, Physio, massage, etc. it's not like your life is in danger if your back is sore, but it would severely reduce your quality of life.

And why should we care whether or not this person has a higher chance of committing suicide if he doesn't get the operation?

Considering he murdered someone, suicide seems like a pretty decent outcome to me.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

If you can show me a story of a convicted killer having the government pay for his/her nose job, I'd love to see it.

The difference between GRS and a rhinoplasty would be that under normal circumstances a rhinoplasty would not be deemed medically necessary by the medical profession, whereas the GRS would be.

I am sure there are exceptions to both though, and that's where the stringent and exhaustive diagnostic processes that are in place for GID come into play.