Can the Flames become successful long term without an ELITE #1C ?

[cofias]

Originally Posted by heep223

Can't believe I just read that he's a third line centre.

I guess a third line centre who scored the 6th most goals of all centres in the league in the last three years.

Some people are honestly just completely out to lunch.

Problem is, hockey games are won not just by scoring goals, but by scoring more goals than the opposing team does. This type of drive-by simplistic argument completely misses the point. Literally nobody is arguing that Monahan is bad at scoring goals.

[IgiTang]

Originally Posted by cofias

Problem is, hockey games are won not just by scoring goals, but by scoring more goals than the opposing team does. This type of drive-by simplistic argument completely misses the point. Literally nobody is arguing that Monahan is bad at scoring goals.

So what exactly is Monahan bad at?

I think he's a fine skater. Sure he's not the faster Center, but certainly not the slowest and I'm speaking of #1 Centers. Nobody will ever accuse Jonathan Toews of being an elite skater.

He certainly is not a defensive liability, in fact he's as good if not better than Bergeron was at his age.

Monahan is certainly becoming a much better face-off man and usually takes most of his draws against some of the best in the world.

So... what is he not very good at? Starting a season with a back injury and missing training camp? Sure,I'll buy that.

Edit: Tyler Bozak was talking to the media the other day about Freddie Andersen and his bad start and was saying that people are getting on Andersen 3 games into the season... basically saying people need to get a grip.. this situation is no different. Quite frankly it's embarrassing.

It's right up there with Edmonton shinanigans and how the Canucks were actually a good team 4 games into the season..

[GGG]

We'll conclude that whoever our number one Center is when we win a cup will be an elite number 1 Center regardless if he fits the bill in the alternate universe where we didn't win.

People ascribe these wishy washy labels based on results that demand heavily on chance.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by cofias

Problem is, hockey games are won not just by scoring goals, but by scoring more goals than the opposing team does. This type of drive-by simplistic argument completely misses the point. Literally nobody is arguing that Monahan is bad at scoring goals.

Ok so are you going to elaborate then? What is so horrible about Monahan's game that negates his elite goal scoring ability to the extent that he's a third line centre? Some anecdote about how his defensive game needs work, and how he's not the best skater?

[AcGold]

Points aside where does Backlund stand statistically with one of those player charts? He's got to be in some elite categories with his level of play, about as solid a two way center as I can even remember. He went from getting ragdolled by Malkin and Co. to becoming one of the smartest, hardest working toughest and most effective centres around.

What's a situation he would do poorly in? A breakaway competition? Any other time I'd feel comfortable putting him out there, sure he won't dazzle with stick handling but if Johnny passed it to him the play sure as hell won't die on his stick.

[cofias]

Originally Posted by IgiTang

So what exactly is Monahan bad at?

I think he's a fine skater. Sure he's not the faster Center, but certainly not the slowest and I'm speaking of #1 Centers. Nobody will ever accuse Jonathan Toews of being an elite skater.

He certainly is not a defensive liability, in fact he's as good if not better than Bergeron was at his age.

Monahan is certainly becoming a much better face-off man and usually takes most of his draws against some of the best in the world.

So... what is he not very good at? Starting a season with a back injury and missing training camp? Sure,I'll buy that.

Edit: Tyler Bozak was talking to the media the other day about Freddie Andersen and his bad start and was saying that people are getting on Andersen 3 games into the season... basically saying people need to get a grip.. this situation is no different. Quite frankly it's embarrassing.

It's right up there with Edmonton shinanigans and how the Canucks were actually a good team 4 games into the season..

Monahan is bad at protecting the puck, not giving the puck away, winning board battles, anticipating plays defensively, taking the puck away when defending a puck carrier (although I've seen some improvement in his defensive stick-work this season) and his passing game is underwhelming.

On the other hand he is great at finding the right spot in the offensive zone to receive a pass or deposit a rebound, and possesses a very good release. Like you said he is also improving in the dot, which helps a bit. To summarize, he is pretty bad individually at generating chances and preventing scoring chances against. He is very good at finishing plays. With his current game he thrives in an offensive role being set up by great playmakers, but he can't really carry the load in terms of driving play up-ice.

That means that he would get buried if he got more defensive starts and/or played against tougher opponents, which you can find many vivid examples of just watching game replays. It's often Monahan's line on the ice when the Flames get stuck in their own end for like 2 minutes and end up getting scored on.

Your Bergeron comparison is bizarre, as he has been one of the absolute best two-way centers in the world for a long time. I guess the comparable point in their careers would be around 08-09 or 09-10, when Bergeron was already among the league's best in generating scoring chances and suppressing opponents, and a huge reason for why the Bruins were dominant in the regular season. I don't know how any of this relates to Monahan or his defensive game.

Another thing to note is that your Andersen example is actually pretty interesting in this context since deeper analysis suggested that his high-danger SV% for Anaheim was actually pretty bad compared to how highly he was rated by many. Kind of the opposite situation compared to a guy like Brian Elliott who performed great on high-danger chances, even though many believed he was being merely being sheltered by the supposed excellent defense in STL.
Andersen is better than his abysmal start indicated, but he has never shown that he is an elite goaltender either.

[FlamesAddiction]

I disagree that many people didn't see elite potential in Kopitar when he was drafted. In Europe, people were following him at an early age. He did fall a little in the draft but I recall some people saying he should have been top 5.

Looking back at it, it was such a weak first round outside of about 5 players picked.

[Gaskal]

Anyone know if Gulutzan still insists on matching Johnny's line against the other top lines at home or are they getting more padded starts?

[Vinny01]

Monahan, Bennett, Backlund, Jankowski. The Flames look set up the middle for the next decade

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by IgiTang

So what exactly is Monahan bad at?

First of all let's drop the idea that you have to be "bad" at something if you're not good at it. It's a false premise. Max Reinhart was not "bad" at anything. Matt Stajan is not "bad" at anything. However you're talking about comparing the best athletes in the world, they have to be better than mediocre to be difference making star players. A #1 centre is a star player - a difference maker on more shifts than not.

Originally Posted by heep223

Ok so are you going to elaborate then? What is so horrible about Monahan's game that negates his elite goal scoring ability to the extent that he's a third line centre? Some anecdote about how his defensive game needs work, and how he's not the best skater?

"Horrible" is hyperbole. Monahan however does have an inability to contribute positively when his "elite"* goal scoring doesn't show up (which is, expectedly 69% of games since Oct 2014) The following is going to come across as scathing or "haterade", but it's just my observations on Monahan's all-around game:

- He is not a difference maker in front of the net defensively. He may not be dumb or weak, but generally if a team wants to score on us, they work the puck near Monahan's coverage and he rarely if ever ties up a stick or makes a timely block or hit. He does read cross-ice passes decently. Due to his poor foot speed he has difficulty covering the cycle in the D-zone especially breaking up plays behind the net before they become dangerous. This leads to prolonged D-Zone time. Does that mean he is terrible at staying in front of his man or generally reading the play? No but there is no endgame to his defensive play.

- He has difficulty skating the puck out of the defensive zone in traffic. He generally settles for a "safe" clear into a hopefully open area. However this more often simply leads to prolonged D-zone time. Without the puck, he rarely supports his defensemen as a puck carrier the way most top centres do. The difference is stark as he plays on a team with Backlund and Bennett in particular who always help their blueliners out.

- He doesn't have much of a neutral zone presence away from the puck. When he has the puck in NZ, he has difficulty coordinating controlled entries and generally defers to his wingers (even when that winger is not Gaudreau). Part of this is because he is not a difference maker on the forecheck. This neuters the dump-in or chip-and-chase as a viable option.

- He is overly static in the offensive zone allowing opponents to key in on his linemates. He is not a difference maker on the cycle offensively as a result. This also causes our power play to get stagnant with him on the ice as he doesn't leave his bumper position often.

- He is an overly passive penalty killer resulting in point shots getting through on him, ultimately turning into tips and rebounds.

- He more often than not loses short area foot races, which results in lost zone time.

- He also isn't especially dominant in physical puck battles, although he's not terrible he's also not coming out of corners with the puck often.

Before you label me as a Monahater, remember I am a Flames fan who wants Monahan to be an elite #1 centre just as much as anyone. I am simply saying that if you made a check list of these things, most 1st/2nd line centres in the league, even younger ones than Monahan, check off these boxes. Guys like Draisaitl, Barkov, MacKinnon, and yes, Sam Bennett. You sort of have to have your #1 centre ice man (and to a lesser extent #2) check off enough these boxes to be a dominant team.

*I wouldn't call him an elite goal scorer. That tier is reserved for guys like Stamkos/Crosby/Malkin/Seguin/(Benn/Ovechkin/Tarasenko). He's an upper-tier goal scorer, but not elite..

[PepsiFree]

This is why we can't have nice things good players

[CliffFletcher]

Yeah, because pointing out that players are good at some things and and not at other things is pretty much taking a huge dump all over them. Why can't we be more like Oilers fans?

[Textcritic]

^
It is one thing to recognise a player's deficiencies. It is entirely another to label a 22-year-old +25-goal / 60-point-scoring centreman as having nothing more than 2nd/3rd line potential.

Monahan will be fine. The Flames will be fine in the long run with him and Bennett centring top two lines.

[Macho0978]

Monahan last season in the first 14 games had 2 goals 5 assists and was minus 7. He did have an injury in pre season 2 years in a row. Too many people are over reacting on here. It's pathetic

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Yeah, because pointing out that players are good at some things and and not at other things is pretty much taking a huge dump all over them. Why can't we be more like Oilers fans?

Yeah, because suggesting it's funny that we finally get a #1 centre and all people want to do after a bad start to one season is talk about how he doesn't check off the important boxes that good 1st or 2nd line centres do... is basically being an Oilers fan.

I forgot that there is no middle ground between calling your #1 centre the next coming of Christ and calling him a third liner.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

This is why we can't have nice things good players

It's unbelievable. If Monahan was on another team, we'd be wishing we had a player like him.

Sometimes this new age of fandom is just pure stupidity. With how hyper critical some people are, why even bother cheering for the team? Or do those people get their jollies from waiting around for something to complain about?

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

And the number of people who look only a player's stats is mind blowing. Players are more than how many goals they score. Outside of goal scoring, Monahan's game is mediocre to poor. Bennett has the speed, dynamism, and intensity to elevate his game in ways that would make him a better all-around player.

I actually agree with your sentiment on point overvaluation, but disagree with your analysis on Monahan's game outside of points (not that he doesn't have tones of room to improve).

My comment about him being ahead of Bennett was not merely points based. He was far less sheltered than Bennett in his first year and was a more effective player overall IMO. Not sheltered to the wing, put up against tougher opposition quicker than Bennett has been.

[N-E-B]

I mean, we could have gotten Elias Lindholm instead...

Monahan is fine, he's just struggling right now. People need to take a deep breath.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

we finally get a #1 centre and all people want to do after a bad start to one season is talk about how he doesn't check off the important boxes that good 1st or 2nd line centres do...

If he does not check those boxes off, then why should we not discuss it?

Centre is the most important position in the sport, IMO even more important than goaltender. We've had an elite winger (Iginla), we've had elite goaltender (Kipprusoff), we have an elite defenseman (Brodie). But the last time we had an elite centre was probably Doug Gilmour. Unsurprisingly we've been to the second round only two times in 25+ years since then.

It's not unfair to discuss how best to be a consistent contender. We finished in 26th place last year and you can blame goaltending all you want but it was not remotely the only reason we were bad.

Why come to a sports forum if sports team discussion is a source of ire?

The premise of this thread is a very legitimate question. Doubly so with the death of the trap.

Brind'Amour / E. Staal
McDonald / Getzlaf
Datsyuk / Zetterberg
Crosby / Malkin / J. Staal
Toews / Sharp
Bergeron / Krejci
Kopitar / Richards
Toews
Kopitar / Carter
Toews
Crosby / Malkin / Bonino

It's not an unfair question to ask if we have the foundation to eventually be in that conversation

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

^
It is one thing to recognise a player's deficiencies. It is entirely another to label a 22-year-old +25-goal / 60-point-scoring centreman as having nothing more than 2nd/3rd line potential.

Monahan will be fine. The Flames will be fine in the long run with him and Bennett centring top two lines.

Not to pick on you, but I hear this argument a lot. How do you define "will be fine"? A Stanley Cup champion? Because that is the question in my mind. Not whether Monahan and Bennett are fine players, or even very good players, but will they be good enough to anchor a championship team?

Seems like that is something worth debating, until such time as the answer becomes clearer.