Fan Unions

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

I'm sure some of the bigger teams with larger arenas are pulling a lot of weight but a number of teams, including the Flames, are experience sharp drops

https://############.com/news/nhl-no...low-attendance

I posted the actual data.
https://soundofhockey.com/2023/11/02...ndance-report/

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by Bingo

You would.

That's the whole point.

But you might get a tire iron thrown at you for entering the theatre by the anti-Cruise union.

Oh, so, you just hate unions. Got it

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I posted the actual data.
https://soundofhockey.com/2023/11/02...ndance-report/

What is going on in Winnipeg.

City hit harder than most for discretionary dollars?

[Cecil Terwilliger]

I think there’s a fundamental difference between European sports and North American sports franchises. Many of the European football associations that you’re referring to were originally small community owned teams that over the last hundred years evolved into these massive behemoths with billionaire owners. But these fan groups or fan unions have retained influence over their billionaire owners because they have the support of not just the hard-cores but the casual fans as well.

The European groups see their club as an integral part of their community and see affordable tickets as a right, not a privilege. That just doesn’t exist here where sports is just entertainment and a privilege.

What you’re suggesting is a fundamental change to the relationship between fans, teams, and ownership. And I just don’t think that’s gonna happen. Whether or not it’s a good idea is another conversation entirely.


Like it or not the reality in North American sports is, that fans can only speak with their wallets. No amount of protesting will change ticket prices. And quite frankly, even if we stopped going, it’s more likely to result in a team relocating to a market where fans will pay the ticket prices then the owners reevaluating their relationship with fans. They won’t stop gouging they’ll just go gouge someone else.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Bingo

What is going on in Winnipeg.

City hit harder than most for discretionary dollars?

Certainly stands out. And the team is good.
No idea.
For a team that lost their team once, doesn't paint a strong picture of sustainability.
But yeah perhaps it's economic related.

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I posted the actual data.
https://soundofhockey.com/2023/11/02...ndance-report/

so this is the smoking gun? a table that shows 22% of the leagues teams have had a drop or no improvement in attendance this year?

Consider me corrected

[GreenLantern2814]

No “fan union” will ever make Murray Edwards take notice like $8 tickets on the secondary market and thousands of empty seats.

Pro sports are a luxury entertainment product. The cap is $82M - explain how they make that back charging movie theatre prices for tickets and bar prices for booze.

You want to engage with this team on a nightly basis, you have tv and radio for a reasonable rate.

You want to consume this product in person 41 times a year, pay what it costs.

The whole “oh a family of four can’t go to a game” - sure they can. You can get into the building, have a coke and an ice cream, and sit in the press level. Maybe it’s a little pricey, maybe the “value” isn’t there - but if you want to go to watch this team play live, you can, and it won’t cost you a mortgage payment.

Fan unions. Gracious.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

Oh, so, you just hate unions. Got it

I'm not a union guy for sure.

Hate is a strong word, I think they have their place when they truly look after the worker and not themselves.

But with that response I was just tying it to someone above that mentioned the issue of crossing a fan union line to go to a game.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

so this is the smoking gun? a table that shows 22% of the leagues teams have had a drop or no improvement in attendance this year?

Consider me corrected

Yeah and your huge markets point is proven too with Buffalo, Ottawa and Edmonton at the top!

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

so this is the smoking gun? a table that shows 22% of the leagues teams have had a drop or no improvement in attendance this year?

Consider me corrected

You said "Attendance around the league is tanking"

Which is simply wildly incorrect.

Are you looking for a discussion or just to yell at people who disagree with you? I presented you with facts that clearly refute your statement.

[White Out 403]

I am surprised to see that YoY is up 2% with so many teams have major attendance issues. Again, nearly 1 in 4 teams have gone down in attendance and it's nearly 1 in 3 if you include stagnation. That's the best I can offer to that data.

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

Oh, so, you just hate unions. Got it

for what it's worth I think Bingo and I are two very different sides of the Labour argument (I don't think he'd ever considering calling himself a Socialist whereas I'd be more comfortable with that label) but we're in agreement on the idea of fan unions.

They're not real unions, they have nothing to do improving the material conditions of workers and getting them a fairer deal or owning all the benefits of what labour creates.

Fans are consumers. I get that you fundamentally disagree, and that's cool. But I also personally believe you're watering down the labour movement by drawing parallels where I don't think there are any.

[dieHARDflameZ]

We need less unions, not more.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

I am surprised to see that YoY is up 2% with so many teams have major attendance issues. Again, nearly 1 in 4 teams have gone down in attendance and it's nearly 1 in 3 if you include stagnation. That's the best I can offer to that data.

"so many teams having major attendance issues"

Where do you see this.
You have 6 teams down 3% or more.
You have 4 teams down 5% or more
You have 1 team with a major issue.

Stagnation is in part because some teams are simply at capacity and can't sell more. 6 teams have sold out all games the last 2 seasons - so can't grow further. They make up the bulk of those at 0% growth.

The data is the data. Attendance is not tanking league wide.

[Shazam]

There are like 18000 seats in an arena.

There are 3 million people in Toronto.

That is why ticket prices are high.

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by dieHARDflameZ

We need less unions, not more.

Disagree.

It's about unions actually going to back to intended purpose and not being 'partners in prosperity' with the ruling classes. But Neoliberalism during the Reagan/Thatcher era completely neutered the New Left. But now we're way off topic from so called 'fan unions'.

[Bubba17]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

And yet in north america, teams routinely move from city to city. the flames threatened to move in order to get an arena, and in the NFL its even worse where teams relocate like its no big deal. I think thats bad for fans.

No they don't move "like it's no big deal". NFL have had 9 moves since 1982, 3 were the Raiders moving back and forth from Oakland to LA, 3 were the Rams moving from LA to St. Louis and back to LA. Both of these teams have happened because of politicians promising stadiums then changing their minds again.

MLB has had 6 relocations of franchises since 1960.

NHL has had 7 since 1980 with 2 of them have been teams leaving Atlanta for different reasons (lack of owners). Quebec and Winnipeg lost teams because no owner would step up and eat the losses and since Betman came in he has only allowed Winnipeg to leave to Arizona (already approved before he took over) and a quick sale to Winnipeg of Atlanta because the owners in Atlanta wouldn't allow them to play in the arena (also didn't hurt having David Thompson backing the Winnipeg offer). The transfer of Hartford to Carolina was allowed because the team couldn't play in a 10,000 seat arena either.

[Passe La Puck]

If I can summarize this thread: Winnipeg is No Good.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I'm not a union guy for sure.

Hate is a strong word, I think they have their place when they truly look after the worker and not themselves.

Originally Posted by dieHARDflameZ

We need less unions, not more.

Show your work fellas.

[Elkyiv]

I think the most crucial difference between NHL teams and European clubs that you reference is the way that ownership is structured. Edwards and the rest of the Flames group, do not and will not listen to any unionized fan group. Clubs like FC Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, etc .. being owned by those socis, isn't a company like CSE. Those members have a voice via voting in the board. What voice will you have as an unionized fan?