[GT] US election - It's 2020, what could possibly go wrong?

[direwolf]

Trump lawsuits getting thrown out left and right.

https://www.phillymag.com/news/2020/...ania-lawsuits/

In case after case, the Trump campaign’s lawyers have been trying to exclude votes, deny results or otherwise delay the inevitable – and in case after case, the lawyers have had very little law on their side. And it lays bare how little evidence there is for the larger claims of massive fraud or complex conspiracies being issued by the president.

In Montgomery County, the Trump campaign and the Republican National Committee have filed suit against the Montgomery County Board of Elections in an effort to stop the county from counting mail in ballots. The complaint centers on 592 mail in ballots that the suit claims were counted but should not have been, due to irregularities or “deficiencies,” as the lawsuit puts it, on the outer mailing envelope.

In its response, filed in court on Monday, the Montgomery County Board of Elections insists that there was nothing actually wrong with those 592 envelopes and that the suit is just another example of the campaign challenging an election with no actual legal basis to do so. The response literally begins with the sentence, “Here we go again.” You gotta love it.

Jonathan Goldstein, the Hatfield-based attorney representing the Trump campaign, did his best to make some sort of logical argument in front of the judge hearing the case, referring to what the board was doing as a “scheme.” But the judge seemed confused as to whether the campaign was actually claiming voter fraud.

“In your petition, which is right before me — and I read it several times — you don’t claim that any electors or the Board of the County were guilty of fraud, correct?” asked the judge. “That’s correct?”

“Your Honor, accusing people of fraud is a pretty big step,” Goldstein replied. “And it is rare that I call somebody a liar, and I am not calling the Board of the DNC or anybody else involved in this a liar. Everybody is coming to this with good faith. The DNC is coming with good faith. We’re all just trying to get an election done. We think these were a mistake, but we think they are a fatal mistake, and these ballots ought not be counted.”

Given that Goldstein tried to dodge the exact question about voter fraud, the judge restated it.

“I understand,” he told Goldstein. “I am asking you a specific question, and I am looking for a specific answer. Are you claiming that there is any fraud in connection with these 592 disputed ballots?”

“To my knowledge at present, no,” Goldstein said.

“Are you claiming that there is any undue or improper influence upon the elector with respect to these 592 ballots,” queried the judge.

“To my knowledge at present, no,” was Goldstein’s reply.

[direwolf]

https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-ne...60b2cb4ac84ff8

Renowned Republican elections lawyer Ben Ginsberg said today that President Trump's effort to challenge election results in swing states are already proving to be futile.

"What you are also seeing today in court is ... affidavits that don't even challenge votes, but that challenge the process, are really getting derided by judges around the country," said Ginsberg, speaking with CNN's Erin Burnett.

"More and more, this is looking like a losing effort and that brand is eventually gonna stick to the President," he said.

As of the recount of 5 million votes that's about to begin in Georgia, Ginsberg said to expect a few hundred votes to change at the most.

[djsFlames]

Cause 592 votes would of course change the outcome in any of the states in question.

[FlamesAddiction]

I think the idea is that if Trump demonstrate that the system is flawed no matter what the vote counts are, he can create bedlam and authorize martial law to hold on to the presidency.

This is his Reichstag moment.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Cause 592 votes would of course change the outcome in any of the states in question.

The goal in Pennsylvania is to give cover to the Pennsylvania Republican legislature to ignore the will of the people and replace the slate of electors. So all Pennsylvania lawsuits are just about misinformation.

Though the ballot arriving late that affect 10k or so segregated votes is real and I suspect they will win that one.

[#-3]

Originally Posted by peter12

I'm not at all sure what you are trying to say here. Am I sick of Trump? Yes. I have been for four years.

I'm saying

America isn't immune from becoming Germany in the 30s

Germany wasn't destined to become the Nazi regime, it could have gone differently.

Trump is already trying to do a lot of dangerous things that lead down that road. In particular, threatening to lock up is opponents and steel an election.

As far as Trumps crimes go, aside from the perjury he is basically on the record admitting to, and the tax evasion everyone knows about. He has already been cited as a co conspirator in the successful conviction of Michael Cohen, it is a fact endorsed by the US judicial system that if he were not president he would be a convicted felon.

Arguing against comparisons to 1933 Germany is minimizing the problem at this point (with the caveat that nobody is comparing them to 1939 Germany, yet).

[peter12]

Originally Posted by #-3

I'm saying

America isn't immune from becoming Germany in the 30s

Germany wasn't destined to become the Nazi regime, it could have gone differently.

Trump is already trying to do a lot of dangerous things that lead down that road. In particular, threatening to lock up is opponents and steel an election.

As far as Trumps crimes go, aside from the perjury he is basically on the record admitting to, and the tax evasion everyone knows about. He has already been cited as a co conspirator in the successful conviction of Michael Cohen, it is a fact endorsed by the US judicial system that if he were not president he would be a convicted felon.

Arguing against comparisons to 1933 Germany is minimizing the problem at this point (with the caveat that nobody is comparing them to 1939 Germany, yet).

I’m actually sure America is immune to becoming Nazi Germany, but you believe what you want.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by peter12

I’m actually sure America is immune to becoming Nazi Germany, but you believe what you want.

Nobody is immune to becoming Nazi Germany, my friend.

[#-3]

Originally Posted by peter12

I’m actually sure America is immune to becoming Nazi Germany, but you believe what you want.

And I'm calling you naive I guess.

[direwolf]

Originally Posted by GGG

The goal in Pennsylvania is to give cover to the Pennsylvania Republican legislature to ignore the will of the people and replace the slate of electors. So all Pennsylvania lawsuits are just about misinformation.

Nah, this is all about keeping the base riled up for the Georgia runoffs, and making sure Trump campaigns for them.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/10/polit...age/index.html

by Monday the President had grown frustrated that more top Republicans had not put out statements or gone on TV to amplify his message, according to two people familiar with the matter. 



The President, feeling as though McConnell and others had abandoned him, lashed out at some GOP allies, and even dangled the idea of not helping Republicans in two runoff elections in Georgia that will decide which party controls the Senate, according to one person told about the outburst. Multiple sources close to McConnell have denied Trump said this directly to McConnell.

While McConnell's speech stopped short of endorsing Trump's baseless allegations of fraud, it was a tacit acknowledgment of the leverage Trump holds over the party. 

"(McConnell) knows he needs Trump," said a person familiar with the matter. "So you don't want him blowing you up in the runoffs." The person also said McConnell knows "being successful in Georgia is to keep Trump under the tent."

That, more than anything, explains why McConnell stepped out in support of Trump, according to one veteran GOP strategist.

"He would probably be less accommodating if Trump didn't have hostages," said the strategist, referring to the power the President has to turn out voters in the runoffs. "How Trump behaves in the next 60 days is probably the single biggest variable at play."

On Monday evening, Senate Judiciary Chairman Lindsey Graham of South Carolina echoed that sentiment in comments to CNN.

"I think what would hurt our chances in Georgia is if we don't put these systems under scrutiny," Graham said.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1326544336192851968

[djsFlames]

Anything that humans have successfully created before they can obviously create again. Otherwise it would not have happened in the first place. It's thinking you're immune to that which allows you to slip down that slope.

Might not look the same in today's world, aesthetically it would be different in a lot of ways, and it would be dressed up as something far less threatening (A MAGA trojan horse, if you will), but the foundation of that kind of movement would hold many commonalities if people were to align their views to the sorts of statements that Trumps makes pretty well on the daily. Many of the things he says are on the extremes, and he has people in his base that buy into every word. Important to recognize the danger in that. I would not blindly follow this man or take what he says at face value, but I am not these people. It's the blind belief and lack of scrutiny that allows people to follow these figures down a dark path. Starts as pro-economy and drain the existing swamp, then devolves into democratic voter suppression, accusations of left-wing conspiracies, and now discrediting the electoral process as fraudulent based on feeble claims.

Do I think that's where it's headed? No not necessarily, this is something that's still very much in the fetal phase, as another poster said. But could it eventually? It has the potential. And more importantly, would I trust that this MAGA hat wearing crowd would take away valuable lessons from their history textbooks necessary to recognize the similarities in current events that they would say no and draw a line between themselves and Trump/a successor of Trump's if they went too far (and one could make a strong case that in many ways they already have)? No... sadly I don't think I could confidently say so, hence the concern.

[Swift]

A good breakdown of why it's extremely unlikely that Trump will be able to cling to power for a second term - https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...president-coup

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by peter12

I’m actually sure America is immune to becoming Nazi Germany, but you believe what you want.

hmm lets see, take a whole race of people, remove their legal status, treat them anyway you want up to and including killing them on a whim, check...

Invade and dominate other countries in the furtherance of you belief that you are the superior race and your philosophy should be the one that rules the world, check....

Conduct a world wide war on communism in the belief that it is evil...check

hmm pretty easy to make a case for all this for both Germany or the US

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

hmm lets see, take a whole race of people, remove their legal status, treat them anyway you want up to and including killing them on a whim, check...

Invade and dominate other countries in the furtherance of you belief that you are the superior race and your philosophy should be the one that rules the world, check....

Conduct a world wide war on communism in the belief that it is evil...check

hmm pretty easy to make a case for all this for both Germany or the US

When did any of this happen over the past four years? Or do you mean in the general history of the United States? I would love to see your case for this.

[81MC]

I’m assuming you are talking about Indians having their legal status removed? I think indigenous affairs are as good as they have ever been in the US.

The Cold War ended 30 years ago.
The Americans certainly have not invaded anywhere based on race and philosophy. Capital, arguably a more dastardly reason, yes. But do you really think Cuba, Panama, Afghanistan etc were race wars?

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by peter12

I’m actually sure America is immune to becoming Nazi Germany, but you believe what you want.

Wow, bold statement and strongly disagree. Honestly on most topics I agree with you but this one I think you’re out to lunch. At a certain point, and in my opinion we have crossed it, but at a certain point you need to stand up to it. Sometimes there is no negotiation or debating left to do. I know you know what’s right and wrong here.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by 81MC

I’m assuming you are talking about Indians having their legal status removed? I think indigenous affairs are as good as they have ever been in the US.

The Cold War ended 30 years ago.
The Americans certainly have not invaded anywhere based on race and philosophy. Capital, arguably a more dastardly reason, yes. But do you really think Cuba, Panama, Afghanistan etc were race wars?

The whole point of manifest destiny was it was based on the superiority of white western culture, over Mexico, over native Americans over Cuban's Philippino's.

As to legal status I was also thinking of Black Americans as well

The Cold war didnt end it was won, it is now kicking off again against China

My point was that US history has every aspect of German history as well, their is nothing about the US that a good demigog couldnt use to bring on fascism

[Cali Panthers Fan]

^Quite the slippery slope argument you all are making. There are elements of fascism in most countries around the world. Germany, who should have learned their lesson more than most, continues to struggle to contain neo-nazism, even in the higher ranks of the military. Is anybody actively concerned that they will lapse into 1930's Germany again? No.

It's not dissimilar in the States. Yes, there is a vocal minority who would love nothing better than to have Trump as supreme leader forever, but they are the vast minority and can easily be outnumbered by the rest of America.

We also have a significant number of actual anarchists in the society, and any number of other extreme groups who make a lot of noise, but they do not represent the society as a whole.

Be careful of the picture that the media presents of the population. It's far less extreme than you think it is on the whole.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by peter12

A mature political outlook sees “othering” as a perennial part of every political system. It doesn’t magically just go away in a democracy.

We have historically looked to our leaders to moderate those views, for public consumption anyway, rather than promote them.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

The Cold war didnt end it was won, it is now kicking off again against China

I would argue the Cold War wasn't won by any nation state, it was ended as a result of many factors beyond the control of the participants. The Americans engaged the Russians in an arms race that greatly contributed to the economic crisis the Soviets would face, but it was the Soviets' foray into Afghanistan and the three consecutive crop failures in the 80s that really caused the end of the Cold War. And don't think for a second the United States won the Cold War. The effects of that arms race is still being felt by the country as Reagan spent those trillions of dollars on the country credit card with 18-21% interest. The impact of that spending will be felt for generations to come and continues to be a drag on the nation. Just like America's incursion into Afghanistan to aid the fight against the Soviets resulted in long term blowback (Al Qaeda), so to does the spending that Reagan engaged in. The Soviet Union crumbled under the weight of the Cold War, but America opened Pandora's Box and still may feel the weight of that period contribute to her own failure.

My point was that US history has every aspect of German history as well, their is nothing about the US that a good demigog couldnt use to bring on fascism

Completely agree with this. If a demagogue with brains, meaning someone other than Trump (sorry peter12, Trump is an incompetent idiot), was availed this following, America could be turned in a heartbeat. Pulling on the heart strings of "patriotism" can pull America together in a New York minute. If Trump had any brains he would have picked a paper tiger nation, like North Korea, and run a false flag attack against an American asset, with moderate casualties. That would have been his 9/11 moment and he could have got the whole nation whipped into a frenzy and behind him, giving him the greenlight to remove all their civil liberties and really raid the treasury. Fortunately, Trump is an idiot and surrounded himself with idiots, so we only had to out up with the later, but could you imagine Trump with the American support Bush had after 9/11? Terrifying.

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Yes, there is a vocal minority who would love nothing better than to have Trump as supreme leader forever, but they are the vast minority and can easily be outnumbered by the rest of America.

71 million say otherwise. I don't think we appreciate how close we are to the edge of the cliff. When I observe what the military and intelligence communities are saying, there is a great degree of alarm in those conversations and the concern is real. They see it, and they see all the warning signs. I am always uneasy about the population of this country because they are so easily hoodwinked and subject to propaganda. I see a vast majority that could be swayed by certain means, and that is a scary proposition.

Be careful of the picture that the media presents of the population. It's far less extreme than you think it is on the whole.

I dunno Cali. I think you may be a little off here and need to get out around your state a little more. After living in Florida and exploring all it has to offer, there are some really backwards parts of that state and they are proud of that backwardness. This extends all across the nation. Yes, the cities are very cosmopolitan and open, but the rest of the nation - the majority of the nation - is still rural and backward. These are the people that concern me the most as they embrace the very xenophobia that fascists rely upon to build that nationalist belief. Having been across the country multiple times (46 of 50 states) I can see the potential there. The city folk might be harder to convince, but those country folk? I think they are low hanging fruit there for the picking.