Brad Treliving needs to go

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Heck, Yzerman may have been called a genius a bit prematurely. Back in his stomping grounds, he's not moved the bar that much IMO. They are still a non-PO team, with a roster that isn't exactly young. Their best player is 25 and they really only have one promising young forward on the roster - Raymond and one on D (Seider). When Raymond hits 25, Larkin will be 31, Bertuzzi 32. They'd better have found a bunch more talent to fill in the holes by then. And hope that goalie Ned pans out.

He's only been there 2 1/2 years, these things take time.

I think this is part of what people overlook with a tear it down rebuild, it doesn't happen overnight.

8-10 years to build a true contender if you want a true tear it down rebuild, and to build through the draft and development system.

The biggest problem with Detroit's re-build is that Zadina (6th overall) and Rasmussen (9th overall) are looking like busts, and those guys were selected before Yzerman got there.

The first two high picks that Yzerman made, Raymond and Seider, weren't consensus picks when they were taken and they have been home runs so far. He might regret Edvinsson over Eklund in the 2021 draft, but I'm not going to question Yzerman. I did that when he took Seider and anyone who did that looks stupid now.

[Ped]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Yzerman also did not draft Stamkos or Hedmen

His top 10 picks were
Brett Connelly
Slater Koekkoek
Jonathan Drouin.

All pretty much busts.

Then again he turned Drouin into Sergachev., and got two seconds for Connolly.


He also drafted Gudas, Namestnikov, Kucherov, Palat, Paquette, Vasilevsky, Point, Cirelli, Joseph, and Colton, among others.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

And that’s the crux of the criticism from me . I just believe most of the other 31 GMs are better then BT. And In a game of 32 if you can’t spot the sucker , you’re the sucker

I think there are 8 GMs that are clearly better than Treliving:

David Poile
Doug Armstrong
Joe Sakic
Steve Yzerman / Julien Brisebois (These two count as one for now because I think Brisebois has mostly just driven what Yzerman built over the finish line)
Kelly McCrimmon
Brian MacLellan
Don Sweeney

Then I think there is a big group of people that I'm not sure if they are good GMs or bad GMs - they tend to be a mixed bag when you look at their overall success, and the moves they've made in their tenure.

I think Treliving fits in some where in the middle to bottom of this group.

Kevin Cheveldayoff
Bill Zito
Jarmo Kekalainen
Lou Lamoriello
Don Waddell
Doug Wilson (He's good but poor recent history)
Kyle Dubas
Rob Blake
(Personally I think I'd rank Treliving about right here)
Jim Nill
Ron Hextall
Bill Armstrong
Tom Fitzgerald
Bill Guerin

And I think you have a couple that I think you could say are worse than Treliving.

Kevyn Adams (butchered the Eichel situation)
Ken Holland (that thread of his last 10 years of GM is just barf)
Ron Francis (Carolina improved once he was fired and the expansion draft was horrible IMO)
Chuck Fletcher (Didn't like him in Minnesota, that Ristolainen trade was horrible)
Pierre Dorion (He might actually be good but with a terrible owner)

And then you have some people that just started in a new job so it's tough to say if they are good, or are still good.

Jeff Gorton
Jeff Solomon
Kyle Davidson
Chris Drury

So I think Treliving is a middle of the pack, which isn't a great outcome.

His saving grace IMO is that he has drafted quite well IMO in his time as GM. He hasn't had enough picks, but he's done well with the picks we have had. However my biggest worry is I have no faith this ownership group would actually hire a better GM. I actually think it's likely we'd replace Treliving with a dinosaur GM who would be even worse. My biggest concern is that I think outside of drafting his GM skills really did seem to dip once Burke left.

[Jason14h]

I would agree with the above. There are a few stinkers that are worst then BT for sure. Hes somewhere in the low middle. Which puts him around 20-24th most likely.

Which is about the performance we have seen out of him IMO. And thats not good enough.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Haha, okay so what are we saying here? That all the GMs of the top teams in the league are just lucky, and...what? Treliving is just as good as the GMs as the GMs of the top teams of the league?

It kind of shows how tough the job is and how everyone can make mistakes and luck comes into play.

I think the key for me is this. You think Treliving is a bad GM. I actually think he is good to above average in his role but I think his time here is definitely winding down and he is not going to be able to build a true winner here.

I think too many people gloss over the market and pressures and do not fully respect how difficult Calgary is to work. One of Sakic’s best deals was for a player the Flames had negotiated a deal but he refused to come here.

I am ready for a new GM. Either all in with Lombardi to win it all or more likely a fresh face to rebuild this team. Looks like they extended the window to have time to get a team together before a new building with the most recent delay.

Brad signed some great RFA contracts and was able to make some shrewd trades and even some solid UFA deals in his time here. He made bad trades, awful coaching hires, and signed some bad deals as well. I am ready for a new GM but I don’t think the one we have is bad. Just time to move on as he couldn’t get more than a division banner and playoff series victory in 7 years. We will see what happens this year

[GioforPM]

"Steve Yzerman / Julien Brisebois (These two count as one for now because I think Brisebois has mostly just driven what Yzerman built over the finish line) "

I actually think that Brisebois was central to the cup wins. He developed a lot of the cup winning team in the AHL affiliate when he was AGM (and GM of the AHL team). And he was pretty significant in player personnel decisions under Yzerman as well.

Which leads to a question about Calgary and its power structure and the support Treliving has (or doesn't have). How good are Conroy, Pascall, Maloney (I won't include Snow), Edwards, Mackinnon, and Gelinas?

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I think too many people gloss over the market and pressures and do not fully respect how difficult Calgary is to work. One of Sakic’s best deals was for a player the Flames had negotiated a deal but he refused to come here.

I am ready for a new GM. Either all in with Lombardi to win it all or more likely a fresh face to rebuild this team. Looks like they extended the window to have time to get a team together before a new building with the most recent delay.

With the benefit of hindsight that Kadri+Brown for Brodie+Jankowski deal looks like it would have been an absolute fleecing had that trade happened.

It's really unfortunate that it didn't happen because I do think it's the shake up that team needed in the 2019 off-season.

Originally Posted by GioforPM

"Steve Yzerman / Julien Brisebois (These two count as one for now because I think Brisebois has mostly just driven what Yzerman built over the finish line) "

I actually think that Brisebois was central to the cup wins. He developed a lot of the cup winning team in the AHL affiliate when he was AGM (and GM of the AHL team). And he was pretty significant in player personnel decisions under Yzerman as well.

That's why he's on the list.

But the fact remains that he hasn't really had to build his own team yet, and took over a franchise that had probably the best core in hockey when Yzerman left. Easily had the best position to start with of any GM taking over a full time job in the last decade IMO.

He gets a lot of credit for actually trusting the youth though and knowing when to give a player a chance to develop and prove himself at the NHL level. Something Treliving has struggled with in recent years.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Ped

Then again he turned Drouin into Sergachev., and got two seconds for Connolly.


He also drafted Gudas, Namestnikov, Kucherov, Palat, Paquette, Vasilevsky, Point, Cirelli, Joseph, and Colton, among others.

I mentioned his best draft picks were outside of the top 10 and so critical to the lightning win.

But I am told that only way to win a cup is tank and hit it out of the park with high picks?

Brad got 2 2nds for Bennett and gets roasted regularly for it

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

But I am told that only way to win a cup is tank and hit it out of the park with high picks?

Hedman and Stamkos are 2 of their 4 most valuable players on their team

In a lot of ways having that solid base means you can build 'smarter' - You aren't always chasing a weakness

If the Flames had a number one D and a sniper on the team when BT took over it would be a lot easier to build a team around. Heck add those two players to our existing team, drop the bad FA's (we couldn't have afforded) and we are right there as a contender and people probably think BT did a good job

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Hedman and Stamkos are 2 of their 4 most valuable players on their team

In a lot of ways having that solid base means you can build 'smarter' - You aren't always chasing a weakness

If the Flames had a number one D and a sniper on the team when BT took over it would be a lot easier to build a team around. Heck add those two players to our existing team, drop the bad FA's (we couldn't have afforded) and we are right there as a contender and people probably think BT did a good job

Hedmen yes super critical. Stamkos tough to say because he didn’t even play in their first cup win outside of a single game.

Kucherov, Point, Vasileksy, Hedmen are the pillars of that team and many other players who were drafted late or acquired through trade.

There is definitely an argument to be made that Stamkos was integral in the culture aspect of the team for sure. On ice it was the 2nd rounder from 2011, and 3rd rounder from 2014 that carried the load

2020- Kucherov 34pts in 25 games Point 33pts in 23 games (14 goals)
2021- Kucherov 32pts in 23 games Point 23pts in 23 games (14 goals)

[djsFlames]

He doesn't have to be bad/terrible for us to merely declare that it didn't work out.

There were moves that at the time had received support here, including Neal.

We were as fooled as he was. And you can't control Nazem Kadri going and requesting an alternate destination. That would have solidified our top 3 center positions.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

He doesn't have to be bad/terrible for us to merely declare that it didn't work out.

There were moves that at the time had received support here, including Neal.

We were as fooled as he was. And you can't control Nazem Kadri going and requesting an alternate destination. That would have solidified our top 3 center positions.

Yeah, I don't know why the "fire" crowd has to declare him incompetent. Surely just the elapse of time without success can be the rationale. After all, several of the managers that people rank above him were replaced at some point, often for the very reason that several years without a big success happened. Eg. Armstrong in Dallas.

BTW, on the list that was posted, I think Boston fans kind of disagree on Sweeney. His trade history is hit and miss at best (see losing Hamilton, and trading for Hayes, Nash, Kase). His UFAs as well (Backes - ugh). And the 2015 first round draft... whew.

[Kipper_3434]

Missing out on kucherov and Point still hurts. Kucherov because we reportedly really wanted to draft him, and Point because many hardcore fans identified him as a no brainer pick for us.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Hedmen yes super critical. Stamkos tough to say because he didn’t even play in their first cup win outside of a single game.

Kucherov, Point, Vasileksy, Hedmen are the pillars of that team and many other players who were drafted late or acquired through trade.

There is definitely an argument to be made that Stamkos was integral in the culture aspect of the team for sure. On ice it was the 2nd rounder from 2011, and 3rd rounder from 2014 that carried the load

2020- Kucherov 34pts in 25 games Point 33pts in 23 games (14 goals)
2021- Kucherov 32pts in 23 games Point 23pts in 23 games (14 goals)

No argument, but having Stamkos almost certainly allows those guys to shine more/provides another elite weapon

Stamkos still has averaged over a point per game for the last 4 seasons, just has missed games and had 18 pts in last year players

Imagine Stamkos on the Flames forward lines and Hedman on D. JG and Lindholm may look like Point and Kuch in that scenario.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Kipper_3434

Missing out on kucherov and Point still hurts. Kucherov because we reportedly really wanted to draft him, and Point because many hardcore fans identified him as a no brainer pick for us.

I think Kucherov is underrated here. Hardly ever gets mentioned in the conversations about McDavid, Draisaitl, Mackinnon, Matthews and Eichel, but I think he's right up there, and probably ahead of 2-3 names there.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I think Kucherov is underrated here. Hardly ever gets mentioned in the conversations about McDavid, Draisaitl, Mackinnon, Matthews and Eichel, but I think he's right up there, and probably ahead of 2-3 names there.

Cause he's a dirty cheater who sat out a year to circumvent the cap. Or something like that

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Cause he's a dirty cheater who sat out a year to circumvent the cap. Or something like that

TBF he committed pretty well to the cheat. Not too many guys go get surgery just to thwart the CBA.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I mentioned his best draft picks were outside of the top 10 and so critical to the lightning win.

But I am told that only way to win a cup is tank and hit it out of the park with high picks?

Brad got 2 2nds for Bennett and gets roasted regularly for it

Yeah, Tampa doesn’t win these cups without Hedman. He’s a top-3 defenceman in the league.

Brad got two 2nd for a 4th overall pick who has become a 2nd line centre for one of the best teams in the league because we mis-used him and destroyed his value. Yzerman in comparison, traded Jonathan Drouin for Sergachev before Drouin’s value dropped.

You have to build the foundation of your team through the top of the draft, and then you need to be one of the best drafting and managed teams in the league on top of that foundation.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Yeah, Tampa doesn’t win these cups without Hedman. He’s a top-3 defenceman in the league.

Brad got two 2nd for a 4th overall pick who has become a 2nd line centre for one of the best teams in the league because we mis-used him and destroyed his value. Yzerman in comparison, traded Jonathan Drouin for Sergachev before Drouin’s value dropped.

You have to build the foundation of your team through the top of the draft, and then you need to be one of the best drafting and managed teams in the league on top of that foundation.

The Bennett situation was grossly mishandled. The reason the Flames held on too long is because I think they knew this was the player they had (the one playing well in Florida).

Drouin requested a trade just like Bennett don’t forget that. Yzerman maybe would have held on longer but he pulled the same move that got Bennett out of Calgary. Maybe if Sam requested a trade at 22 the Flames would have done better? I think if we want to point fingers at Brad on this one it is his fault for rushing him and also his fault for the bad coaching hires which are indefensible

The Flames went to the second round on the back of a 21 year old who had flashes of generational talent and a 20 year old who hit 30 goals as a sophomore. I think there was a belief that this was Kane+Toews 2.0 and there was a window to win right away hence the Hamilton trade, Frolik signing l, Gio extension etc. By the time Tkachuk was drafted the star players were on their second contracts and the push to win was on rightly or wrongly.

I thought Brad had reset the rebuild a little when he made the Hurricanes trade as it removed 25 and 26 year olds for 21 and 23. Looked like it worked until the playoffs.

[dino7c]

Bennett's draft position is irrelevant to what you got for him years later. Flames signed a 3 overall for free last summer.

It's fair to criticize the team for Sam but the player also needs to take some responsibility. He really didn't play all that well here consistently and it's not all on linemates. Tkachuk took his jerb and he pouted.