Brad Treliving needs to go

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Sure every move that works out is partially luck. No one has a crystal ball

But you know the old saying "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity"

The only true luck in the NHL is the draft lottery.

It's amazing the good teams in sports always seem to have more luck over the long run then the bad ones. I wonder why that is

Okay Jeff Marek can you please provide some examples?

One would think having 2 top 5 players fall into your lap would be considered lucky yet they play for one of the worst run pro sports teams of all time.

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Yeah, Milbury is also from an era gone by.



It's certainly not automatically a good thing. In some cases though, I think to Shanahan specifically, he put a face on Toronto's scorched Earth approach. Now, their tear down went as well as you can possibly hope for - they ripped it down, and won the lottery like a year later - but it does show that managing with a very targeted goal can work out.



Toronto is a better managed team than Calgary. As you can see while they're still at the top of the league, while the Flames are rudderless.

I'm not crowning anyone - but these are examples of well run teams. The Flames are an example of a poorly run team. Sakic, Yzerman, Shanahan, and Blake are all executing a plan - and they're at a few different stages of those plans.

Shanahan helped build the foundation that has given Toronto a real window at competing. Sakic has as well.

Yzerman built a winner in Tampa, and he's starting from scratch in Detroit - as is Blake in LA.

They also placate the fans. "What do you mean we're sucking on purpose?! oh wait, we're sucking on purpose because *insert former star* believes that he can build a winner through the draft, well I trust *insert former star*"



Yeah, Sakic made some calculated moves and they paid off. That's what being a good manager is about. It feels like you're arguing that if it's not a sure thing, you shouldn't do it. Nothing in sports is a sure thing. You have to manage and put your team in a spot for good things to happen. Yep, the lottery has some luck to it - but you also have to manage your team to put yourself in a position to have good odds at winning the lottery. It's just like winning the Stanley Cup - there's no guarantee you're going to win it. "Success" can't be measured exclusively in Stanley Cups, at least not from the Flames perspective as they need to learn how to walk before they can run.

Toronto is "well run" because the team won the draft lottery in a year in which a generational centre was available, because the team spares no expense in funding scouting and training personnel and facilities because they can afford to, and because players will take a discount to sign in Toronto, because it's Toronto (and will actually waive a no trade clause to go there if traded). Regular season success (remember, the Flames also had some of that a few seasons ago) with no playoff success. I fail to see how Yzerman has done anything that Treliving hasn't that wasn't gifted to him.

[CliffFletcher]

Sakic is being undersold here. He had some stumbles early, but how many GMs wouldn’t want to swap rosters with him?

Since he was named VP of hockey operations (with final say on all hockey personnel decisions) in May 2013, Sakic has:

* Drafted McKinnon. This was not a slam-dunk, as a lot of pundits thought the Avs should take home-town stud D-man Jones. There was also some talk they should draft Drouin, who really came on strong in the months before the draft.

* Drafted Rantanen at #10 OA.

* Drafted Makar.

* Traded for Girard.

* Traded for Grubauer

* Traded for Burakovsky

* Drafted Byram

* Traded for Kadri

* Traded for Toews

In the last two seasons he has improved the roster from very good to powerhouse. If they flame out in the first round of the playoffs, we can start raising questions about the makeup of the team.

[GioforPM]

Heck, Yzerman may have been called a genius a bit prematurely. Back in his stomping grounds, he's not moved the bar that much IMO. They are still a non-PO team, with a roster that isn't exactly young. Their best player is 25 and they really only have one promising young forward on the roster - Raymond and one on D (Seider). When Raymond hits 25, Larkin will be 31, Bertuzzi 32. They'd better have found a bunch more talent to fill in the holes by then. And hope that goalie Ned pans out.

[Vinny01]

I don’t think the message is that Sakic is mediocre it is just the fact the team hasn’t done anything beyond the second round thus far.

2013 MacKinnon was consensus #1. Some people thought the Avs might take Jones because they had RoR and Duchene on the team and Jones dad spent some years playing for the Nuggets. MacKinnon was a player people talked about 2 years before his draft as a phenom

[Vinny01]

Yzerman also did not draft Stamkos or Hedmen

His top 10 picks were
Brett Connelly
Slater Koekkoek
Jonathan Drouin.

All pretty much busts.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Heck, Yzerman may have been called a genius a bit prematurely. Back in his stomping grounds, he's not moved the bar that much IMO. They are still a non-PO team, with a roster that isn't exactly young. Their best player is 25 and they really only have one promising young forward on the roster - Raymond and one on D (Seider). When Raymond hits 25, Larkin will be 31, Bertuzzi 32. They'd better have found a bunch more talent to fill in the holes by then. And hope that goalie Ned pans out.

The Wings were always going to be a long rebuild. Holland left that franchise in terrible shape, with lots of awful contracts and almost no good young assets. And they’ve been screwed by the draft lottery, being bumped down an NHL high eight draft positions since Yzerman took over.

[Monahammer]

Lol, Yzerman has also drafted Raymond and Seider who look like total studs. Also picking up Nedelkovic was very interesting, though I for one was extremely baffled by picking Cossa over wallstedt.

I will give Yz a few more years before returning judgment, but I suspect he will be looked at as an excellent GM. Something he does really well is trading high performing but overall not special players. I suspect that Tyler Bertuzzi will be one of these.

[GioforPM]

Sakic? There have been 24 forwards selected under Sakic’s watch but only three are will with part of the Avalanche’s current core. The other 21 are a mix of peripheral players, prospects or ones no longer with the organization. And I question whether there was really a serious thought of drafting Jones instead. I suspect that was more media driven to create some sense of drama (i.e. Eichel versus McDavid). There's no way a rookie GM was going to go off book like that with the 1OA.

And you can't give him credit for Grubauer without noting he let him walk because he didn't want to pay him $5.9M (or perhaps a little less). He did trade for Girard, but that was Duchene who promptly turned it around and is PPG this year at 31.

[talladega.25]

Is it just me or is phenom overstated and mis-used now. Because wasn't Alexis Lafreniere and Shane Wright supposed to be phenomenal? I know Wright is young and hasn't cracked the league yet, but I don't really see anything exceptional there. Laf was supposed to be the next Mackinnon etc..

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The Wings were always going to be a long rebuild. Holland left that franchise in terrible shape, with lots of awful contracts and almost no good young assets. And they’ve been screwed by the draft lottery, being bumped down a total of eight draft positions since Yzerman took over.

The lottery point is very true. And of course Holland as well. But these days I am not sure you can do a long rebuild. I just don't think they are looking like they will do anything for the forseeable future.

I don't think Yzerman is a bad GM. I just think he was anointed as an elite GM pretty early.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Heck, Yzerman may have been called a genius a bit prematurely. Back in his stomping grounds, he's not moved the bar that much IMO. They are still a non-PO team, with a roster that isn't exactly young. Their best player is 25 and they really only have one promising young forward on the roster - Raymond and one on D (Seider). When Raymond hits 25, Larkin will be 31, Bertuzzi 32. They'd better have found a bunch more talent to fill in the holes by then. And hope that goalie Ned pans out.

Yzerman also was the GM of one of 5 nhl teams with no state income tax. Currently the 5 teams are Florida Tampa Nashville Vegas and Dallas. Combined they have .657 point percent. I think yzerman is a great GM but he still has yet to prove it in a tougher situation

[ComixZone]

Haha, okay so what are we saying here? That all the GMs of the top teams in the league are just lucky, and...what? Treliving is just as good as the GMs as the GMs of the top teams of the league?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

Yzerman also was the GM of one of 5 nhl teams with no state income tax. Currently the 5 teams are Florida Tampa Nashville Vegas and Dallas. Combined they have .657 point percent. I think yzerman is a great GM but he still has yet to prove it in a tougher situation

The tough situation starts next season with 3 D becoming pending UFAs. Then after next season, Larkin, Bertuzzi, Ned, Suter are UFAs. Then a year later comes Seider and Raymond for their first RFA contracts. Money is going to become pretty tight.

They still need a good 2C or someone to push Larkin down to a really great 2C. If they manage to win the lottery I guess they solve that problem, though. and even if they miss on Wright, there's 4 other Cs in the top 10.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by talladega.25

Is it just me or is phenom overstated and mis-used now. Because wasn't Alexis Lafreniere and Shane Wright supposed to be phenomenal? I know Wright is young and hasn't cracked the league yet, but I don't really see anything exceptional there. Laf was supposed to be the next Mackinnon etc..

Lafreniere is still very young. Lots of runway left to perform. Stamkos looked very mediocre for a couple years, even Mackinnon got some heat in the first few years. I was among those that enjoyed bringing up the point deficit between Mackinnon and Monahan at one point for e.g.

Way too early to count Laf out, though his skating has been exposed at this level. Baffling to can wright when he hasn't even been drafted yet lol... and for the record the scouting reports on him are in the Patrice Bergeron mold rather than a heavy point producer.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Haha, okay so what are we saying here? That all the GMs of the top teams in the league are just lucky, and...what? Treliving is just as good as the GMs as the GMs of the top teams of the league?

Ken Holland had tons of success early in his career. Is he a good gm? He was anointed one of the best for years.

The difference between one gms success and another gms failure could have a lot to do with luck or circumstances. I personally not saying treliving is better than Sakic or yzerman but I’m not as hard on him as others because he’s in a tougher situation as other gms are

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Haha, okay so what are we saying here? That all the GMs of the top teams in the league are just lucky, and...what? Treliving is just as good as the GMs as the GMs of the top teams of the league?

Well, I tend to think that there's exaggeration about how good or bad various GMs are, and yes, luck has a big role in a team's success, as well as the situation they get dropped into.

But more to the point, an ex-star player =/= successful GM for his old team and even the ones cited are not exactly killing it. You can make a good argument that the best GM in the league never played NHL hockey and was deemed too old to continue in Toronto.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Lafreniere is still very young. Lots of runway left to perform. Stamkos looked very mediocre for a couple years, even Mackinnon got some heat in the first few years. I was among those that enjoyed bringing up the point deficit between Mackinnon and Monahan at one point for e.g.

Way too early to count Laf out, though his skating has been exposed at this level. Baffling to can wright when he hasn't even been drafted yet lol... and for the record the scouting reports on him are in the Patrice Bergeron mold rather than a heavy point producer.

Stamkos looked mediocre for 1 year then exploded to an elite goal scorer after 1 season.

Maybe he could evolve into a Lindholm but he’s not elite and they should dump him if that is the case

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Lafreniere is still very young. Lots of runway left to perform. Stamkos looked very mediocre for a couple years, even Mackinnon got some heat in the first few years. I was among those that enjoyed bringing up the point deficit between Mackinnon and Monahan at one point for e.g.

Way too early to count Laf out, though his skating has been exposed at this level. Baffling to can wright when he hasn't even been drafted yet lol... and for the record the scouting reports on him are in the Patrice Bergeron mold rather than a heavy point producer.

That's all true, although I tend to think that the media likes to overhype top draftees as well.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Well, I tend to think that there's exaggeration about how good or bad various GMs are, and yes, luck has a big role in a team's success, as well as the situation they get dropped into.

But more to the point, an ex-star player =/= successful GM for his old team and even the ones cited are not exactly killing it. You can make a good argument that the best GM in the league never played NHL hockey and was deemed too old to continue in Toronto.

We’ll these are in theory the 32 most elite hockey GMs on the planet . Luck always plays some role

Loosing a bunch of game 7 and OTs when outplaying the opposition is luck for sure

Winning better draft spots is luck for sure

However over 7 years the luck should relatively have evened out .

When you look at young talent , cap position, salary structure and standings this year there are not a lot of teams you wouldn’t trade the Flames roster with 1 for 1 if trying to win for the next 5 years .

And that’s the crux of the criticism from me . I just believe most of the other 31 GMs are better then BT. And In a game of 32 if you can’t spot the sucker , you’re the sucker