[News] Brian Burke joining Calgary Flames as President of Hockey Operations

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by strombad

I don't think Louie factors in to the Toronto/Boston trade at all. That is going a little too deep into it, because you're then basing the original trade on asset management and the ability of the GM of the Dallas Stars.

Even judging it as "Kessel vs. Seguin/Hamilton" is a little silly if you think about it. You're judging a trade that was a known commodity for two unknowns based on what those unknowns turned out to be. The problem with that is had Toronto kept those picks, there's no guarantee that Toronto would have chosen those two guys. What if they had drafted.... I don't know, Gudbranson and Seimens instead? I'd rather have Kessel. As far as the debate of Seguin/Kessel goes, I'd much rather have Seguin as a building block, he's better now than Kessel was at the same point in his career.

I think what we have to consider is the trade as it was, not as how it turned out to be.

...

People always consider trades with how they turned out to be. That is ultimately how all trades end up being judged. At the time of the trade the analysts always say things like "this trade might look good right now but in a couple years it might not!".

This is especially true when the trade includes things like future first round draft picks. Will those draft picks be worth a lot (top 3) or worth a little (28-30)? It makes a massive difference where those picks end up landing. Then you need to consider the player that ends up being drafted in that position. If you do not consider what those draft picks turned into then you will never actually be able to judge the full impact of the trade.

[Tinordi]

Hiring Burke also allows the organization (Ken King) to save face with the inevitable canning of Feaster and Hartley. That shouldn't be overlooked.

edit: Their dismissal can be chalked up to Burke wanting "his guys" in there instead of we made a big mistake hiring these two.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Wolven

People always consider trades with how they turned out to be. That is ultimately how all trades end up being judged. At the time of the trade the analysts always say things like "this trade might look good right now but in a couple years it might not!".

This is especially true when the trade includes things like future first round draft picks. Will those draft picks be worth a lot (top 3) or worth a little (28-30)? It makes a massive difference where those picks end up landing. Then you need to consider the player that ends up being drafted in that position. If you do not consider what those draft picks turned into then you will never actually be able to judge the full impact of the trade.

Just because people do it, doesn't mean it's a logic method on judging the original trade. It's benefit analysis on both sides, risk vs. reward. My point is, people judge Burke on the trade as having made a bad one, but that is not being fair to the true value of a first round draft pick. Burke made a GOOD trade. That's it. Maybe it turns out in the end that Boston benefits more, but regardless, that was a good trade.

Look at it this way:
If someone said "I'll trade you my first overall pick for a third round pick and a fifth round pick" you do it a million times. Any GM that trades a 3rd and 5th round pick for 1st overall is a MAGICIAN.... but what if it's 1993?

You just traded Vaclav Prospal and Miroslav Satan for Daigle. You lose.

I guess more of what I'm saying is that the win/loss thing doesn't dictate a good/bad trade. You can make a good trade and lose, you can make a bad trade and win. But luck doesn't dictate the quality of a GM. Burke made a good trade, guy made a ton of good trades, but sometimes, as luck would have it, you can still lose a good trade.

[LouCypher]

More hockey brains and experience is a big win with the current state of the franchise. The idea is to not just make it to the playoffs but to be a consistently competitive team every year, bringing in a guy who has been there before really a no brainer not to mention the fact that he is adding to our hockey department in this newly created role rather then filling a pre existing vacancy.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by strombad

I guess more of what I'm saying is that the win/loss thing doesn't dictate a good/bad trade. You can make a good trade and lose, you can make a bad trade and win. But luck doesn't dictate the quality of a GM. Burke made a good trade, guy made a ton of good trades, but sometimes, as luck would have it, you can still lose a good trade.

Agreed. I am still not convinced that Burke ultimately won or lost the Kessel trade. I think both teams got very good assets and in the end the Bruins likely win it based on the impact that each acquired asset ends up having on their respective organization (and that includes using Seguin to acquire Eriksson, Smith, Fraser, and Morrow).

Whether or not Burke may have lost the trade, he still walked away with a valuable asset for his team and ultimately that is what I want to see with his time in Calgary. I can see the Flames needing to make 4 or 5 fairly significant moves this year and having a guy that generally gets good returns on his trades is a good thing.

[pacde]

Put me in the Nay column.
I dont know the man personally and I have mixed opinions on his effectiveness on previous teams. Having said that, he has always come across as belligerent and outspoken on his views and opinions - which in my view fits well with a team that has no direction and nobody is taking leadership.
I like the direction the Flames are going and I sense this team has consolidated a leadership group which have been making some very smart decisions recently and who may now be silenced by an outspoken controlling type individual who doesn't foster team mentality when it comes to hockey decisions. Its my fear, not fact.

[CSharp]

If the Flames would've fired Sutter 4 or 5 years earlier and gotten Burke, Gilles, or someone more credible for the GM position than Sutter, things would've been way better. Still glad Burke is in here now. Better late than never, I guess.

[$ven27]

Originally Posted by Azure

Burke has already said he made the Kessel trade because he was given 3 years to win, and developing the draft pick he had wouldn't have helped with that.

When/where did he say this?

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by Leafs67

Congrats to my second favourite NHL franchise; you have just landed a champion. Before Burke's arrival in Toronto, the organization had nothing in terms of a capable front office, no prospect depth, and no marquis talent anywhere in the organization, save for Luke Schenn. The team that took the Bruins to game 7 was the team that Burke built. That organization now has a healthier prospect pool which promotes internal competition across the board. Don't underestimate the importance of that element of your rebuild. Top tier talent no longer inherits NHL exposure by default; they claw their way out of the AHL by proving their mettle. Secondly, he stabilized the boardroom by hiring knowledgeable hockey executives whose opinions all carry weight. No dead weight, no old cronies interfering with hockey operations. Third, he made sure the development program reflected the systems and philosophies employed by the NHL team. Expect to see something very similar happen in CGY. Your AHL and junior players will br groomed from the ground up to play Flames style hockey, which will be based on pride of ownership, accountability, and a hostile brand of puck that will make the battle of Alberta absolutely epic. Here's something to consider: While Feaster's dismissal is not imminent, Burke will certainly be charged with both the task of evaluating and overseeing his ability to follow a critical path to success of his particular design, as well as the ultimate responsibility of alleviating the franchise of Feaster's presence should he fail to execute according to that plan. Your house will be in order much sooner than the Toronto project took, because you have assets that are moveable, prospects in the system, picks in the hopper, and some pretty solid building blocks to jump off with. Good luck, and while I'm primarily a Leaf fan, I'm also a fan of the game. I'll be watching this team closely and with great interest.

I always figured this is how level-headed Leafs fans would assess Burke. Thanks for the confirmation.

I am really happy now, I think everyone is in the right place - including Feaster.

[#-3]

I was a no for about the 1st 12 hours. But I have come around to the idea a little bit. I would have loved this org structure if it was JD rather than Burke.

[sun]

Burke lost the Kessel trade because it turns out he overpaid. But if you have a 35+ goal scorer after losing a trade, it's not all bad. It's not like he got a bunch of plugs in return for his assets.

[MissTeeks]

@JoshuaCooper: Report: Flames reached out to Poile http://tnne.ws/1dNr3qO #preds #nhl #flames

According to Tony Gallagher of The Province the Calgary Flames reached out to Predators general manager David Poile as president of hockey operations.

Per the report, Poile rebuffed the Flames advance and opted to stay in Nashville. Calgary decided to go after former Toronto general manager Brian Burke for the position.

[Poe969]

Someone should start a thread; What will Burke's first move be?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by MissTeeks

@JoshuaCooper: Report: Flames reached out to Poile http://tnne.ws/1dNr3qO #preds #nhl #flames

Poile would have been great. I suppose it's good to hear the Flames brass was smart enough to target him before Burke.

[Pontine]

Good to hear they did their due diligence though and considered a variety of candidates.

[GreenLantern]

Poll seems pretty one sided.. 93 to 7... lol.

Most decisive calpuck poll ever? Especially with this number of votes?

Calgarypuck.com agreeing on the hiring of former enemy Brian Burke? Interesting development. These kids grew up so fast.

[bubbsy]

having kessel on the team has not really turned the tide on the leafs team during his tenure there. i still think the leafs would have been a stronger franchise wiht the 2 first round picks. getting 2nd overall, and likely better than 9th overall they got the next year, as they wouldn't have had kessel (they didn't make the playoffs that year either of course).

i know seguin's value has dropped dramatically after this last playoff run, but over the last 2 seasons, he's been a 0.77 points/game player, almost a 30 goal scorer and 70 point getter during the last full nhl season.

There's a luxury in having a top line prospect in an org that has a plethora of veteran top line talent already as the pressure and responsibility can be eased on the youngster. However, i think it can also inhibit large growth as they are not given the opportunity to play the only way they can be successful (as the go-to, top line guys) on the team. Seguin still performed admirably in the situation. I believe Seguin will be just fine and be a top 10 Center in the NHL as early as this coming season.

so i really believe you can compare the leafs today: a team that were the worst statistical team last year despite making the playoffs and a team that is still very much a bubble team at best in the east versus a team with a guy like Seguin hitting his 3rd year in the league and trending towards a top 10 Center in the league, plus another top prospect making their push into the league. At worst hamilton as it stands today, but like i said, without kessel that #9 pick would have likely been a top 5'ish pick (landeskog, huberdeau, larsson, coutourier, scheifele, zibahenjad).

had the leafs/burke been patient in 2009, i believe they would have been in a stronger place today and be in a position to start contending soon, rather than having 1 playoff to show for the kessel trade and lots of questions coming (ie. are they still a playoff team, some big UFA decisions coming like kessel himself, etc).

i am sorry to harp on this, i actually love discussing the kessel trade, as it was such a drastic trade at the time and one that can be debated to no end (which makes it fun).

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by Poe969

Someone should start a thread; What will Burke's first move be?

Jump on a plane to Penticton to watch the kids play!

I wouldn't expect anything from him until after camp. The fact that he threw out the line that he wouldn't want to make judgements until he actually sees the players in action leads me to believe that no trades will really be considered until after camp.

At that point, any vets that cannot outplay their rookie counterpart will likely be on the move. But most of us expected that to be the case anyway with how many vets we still have on the roster.

[opendoor]

Yeah, I think the Leafs' performance in 13-14 is going to take a bit of the shine off of the team that Burke is being credited with building. I'm fairly confident that had the Leafs continued playing the way they did that they would've missed the playoffs in a longer season. Though Nonis' terrible moves since being hired won't help matters this season.

Kessel is an excellent player, and I suppose one could argue that the value was there in the trade, but timing and context is just as important. They traded for a top scoring winger and then saddled him with Tyler Bozak as his #1 center and surrounded him with a lottery pick worthy team featuring probably the league's worst goaltending over the last half decade. Now he's a 26 year old pending UFA who'll need an extremely expensive contract to be retained and all the Leafs have to show for the last 4 years is a single 1st round playoff exit.

That's not to take away from the rest of his resume which I think is generally excellent, but I'd hold off for a bit before crediting him with building anything of note in Toronto.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by MissTeeks

@JoshuaCooper: Report: Flames reached out to Poile http://tnne.ws/1dNr3qO #preds #nhl #flames

Glad the flames did their due diligence. That said, i can't really see why they thought Poile would leave Nashville? Flames can give out any title they want, at best it's a co-gm opertation now.

Quite frankly i see it more as Burke GM, Feaster AGM, and Weisbrod head of scouting. I am sure many posters will disagree with me.