While I can't speak for everyone, I imagine it's because most people who didn't know better are surprised to find out just how backwards and ****ed up Russia still is on issues like this. I think most find the idea of an industrialized nation passing a draconian law like this exceptionally odd and that's why you're seeing such a reaction. In fact, it's not that people are biased against Russia, but rather the opposite. I think most people in the West held the Russian people in a reasonably high regard and laws like this are fairly shocking and demonstrate that they probably gave Russian society too much credit.
The fact that you think that average peoples' outrage is rooted in corporations not wanting to lose the Russian gay market illustrates that you are simply on another planet from the rest of the industrialized world on this issue and are grasping at straws to explain your anomalous views on LGBT rights within that context.
That's it for me, and it appears lots of others. Now we know that Russia is a sh**ty, backwards thinking country, and it appears as though a lot of it's citizens are on board, a product of their environment, if you will.
It makes me even happier to live in our great country, and not in that craphole, with it's antiquated, bigoted views on equality.
I too thought Russia was lot more advanced than it now appears. So in that way, it's almost good that they got the Olympics, as it's opening the worlds eyes to how brutal that country is.
Last edited by jayswin; 09-01-2013 at 09:26 PM.
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I still wonder what happened to people who bullied son of Ottawa councilor into suicide. In Russia bullying into suicide means jail time. I linked you the law earlier. If those, who bullied that gay teen into suicide are still free, maybe you should take a look at YOUR laws? Maybe Russians should be wearing some patches to help you progress into direction of protecting teens from being bullied into suicide?
I still wonder what happened to people who bullied son of Ottawa councilor into suicide. In Russia bullying into suicide means jail time. I linked you the law earlier. If those, who bullied that gay teen into suicide are still free, maybe you should take a look at YOUR laws? Maybe Russians should be wearing some patches to help you progress into direction of protecting teens from being bullied into suicide?
Oh hey, I'm with you on that one pointman. I think Canada does need tougher laws on bullying, and not just gay bullying, but the difference is, our country is seeing the need for it and moving in the right direction. this law in Russia is a clear step backwards.
Even more recently two teenagers were charged with distributing child pornagraphy after that girl killed herself because of pics posted of her online.
I'm not really sure what kind of connection you're trying to make, though.
Oh hey, I'm with you on that one pointman. I think Canada does need tougher laws on bullying, and not just gay bullying, but the difference is, our country is seeing the need for it and moving in the right direction. this law in Russia is a clear step backwards.
Even more recently two teenagers were charged with distributing child pornagraphy after that girl killed herself because of pics posted of her online.
I'm not really sure what kind of connection you're trying to make, though.
We ALREADY have law on bullying. Not only we "see the need", we have one in place. As I said, I support LGBT activists to use it more actively to protect russian teens.
Most rudiculous thing is that LGBT activists here said that they want to protect russian gay teens from being bullied into suicide. I said that I support it, provided them an anti-bullying law and suggested to set up a hot line in one of russian LGBT communities so gay teens can call in and talk about being bullied. Then LGBT activists, who really care about gay teens, can spell it out to bullyers, that they are going to jail if they continue like this. It is a pretty realistic, legal plan of action that will yield WAY better results in terms of protecting gay teens, than rainbow patches. I could argue, that I suggested the best idea to protect russian gay teens among anything I've seen in this thread. Still people paint me as homophobe.
You will need to quote single homophobic comment from me then.
Ah, the old "I support this bigoted, homophobic law, but notice how I didn't specifically say anything homophobic, so therefore you can't call me homophobic" defense.
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This kid apparently had so much Gay towards his nose he passed out...
Meanwhile the citizens of Calgary all went about their long weekend. All that was taught was respect your fellow person no matter what sexuality they are. No children were turned gay.
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And pro-gay literature being passed out is by definition propaganda since it is clearly biased, so not sure what you were trying to prove there.
The problem I have with you is that you are selective in what you choose to take from actual definitions and facts. Is it bias? Lets look at the definition:
1 [mass noun] inclination or prejudice for or against one person or group, especially in a way considered to be unfair
Now, read the WHOLE definition. Not just a word or two to skew your perception. The WHOLE THING. Someone hands you a pamphlet saying "It's OK to be gay".
Is this pamphlet speaking in favour of being gay compared to being straight? No.
Is this pamphlet saying being gay is better than being straight? No.
Is this pamphlet making any unfair suggestion to the benefit of being gay, or against being straight? No.
And yet, you can be charged for it.
Fascinating.
If you don't believe me, read the link further down about the man being charged for a sign saying "Being gay and loving gays is normal."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointman
You can receive and impart any information on gayness. Go to www.gay.ru and receive and impart anything you want.
So I there are restrictions on where I can impart information on "gayness"? So, you agree, my basic humans rights are being restricted. Thanks!
It is prohibited to PROMOTE MISLEADING information that leads to forming a DISTORTED opinion about non-traditional sexual relationships among underage people.
Really... so if you hold a sign saying "Being gay and loving gays is normal. Beating gays and killing gays is a crime!"
That would be ok right? After all, you are not promoting misleading information (as you are simply saying it's "ok to be gay" and that violence is wrong) nor are you leading anyone to form a distorted opinion about being gay.
The problem is that you can't grasp that I am linking you the text of ACTUAL LAW! It is NOT interpretaion. It can not be one of a thousands, there's only one text of law. It can not be biased. Not only I explained in lengths on what is and what is not allowed, but I linked it to you twice so you can google translate it and see yourself.
You are interpreting what is happening. I have seen the law many times, I know exactly what it says. You, however, whether because English is not your first language or you are purposely evasive, distort the actual effect of the law and constantly quote a translation of the law instead of talk about how the law is being enforced.
Every link that is presented showing actual LGBT individuals being affected by this is casually brushed off by you, as though only your opinion is one of value, and not the opinion of ACTUAL LGBT people in Russia. It's kind of like a white confederate soldier saying "Slavery? What the black people say isn't true, it's not actually that bad."
Really not so genuine and valuable is it?
The links you post to actual interviews are those of people supporting the law. That's bias, that could even be.... propaganda!
Oh, and your little thing you've got going about telling people how to help gay teens? I'd slow down bud. You aren't helping them at ALL. So you go ahead and stop telling people how they should or should not help.
It looks like the Russians are *FAR* more interested in pressing charges and convicting THIS GUY:
The sign says: "Being gay and loving gays is normal. Beating gays and killing gays is a crime!"
Far more important to convict this guy than to go after the bullies.
It looks like many people are on the side of the bullies. Here and elsewhere.
In terms of case here in Ottawa, there were no charges laid as nobody knows who was doing the bullying. However, Rick Mercer says that more should have been done to find those responsible:
Last edited by Devils'Advocate; 09-02-2013 at 04:15 AM.
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It looks like the Russians are *FAR* more interested in pressing charges and convicting THIS GUY:
The sign says: "Being gay and loving gays is normal. Beating gays and killing gays is a crime!"
Far more important to convict this guy than to go after the bullies.
Careful, there are children on this site. Even in its diluted, translated form, this powerful example of Russian "gay propaganda" is capable of converting even the straightest of arrows.
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There is. Gays can't do pride parades and neither can straights. You also can not publicly state that straights are better than gays.
Please produce this law, since it's obviously not the one being discussed, as that law is targeted towards gays (and in your opinion should be MORE targeted towards gays).
Also, you never answered the question of why this law is needed. All you said is that people want the law, that they're tired of gay people promoting, but you still haven't given a reason exactly what it is that people are tired of.
You said yourself that the law is too vague and needs to be targeted MORE towards gays, but you haven't answered what about gays is different than any another non-traditional sexual relationship that you think the law is necessary to target only gays.
__________________ Uncertainty is an uncomfortable position.
But certainty is an absurd one.
It looks like many people are on the side of the bullies. Here and elsewhere.
In terms of case here in Ottawa, there were no charges laid as nobody knows who was doing the bullying. However, Rick Mercer says that more should have been done to find those responsible:
That's great! (EDIT: I mean it's great you are moving towards harsher anti-bullyng laws. I hate bullies)
Quote:
Originally Posted by strombad
So I there are restrictions on where I can impart information on "gayness"? So, you agree, my basic humans rights are being restricted. Thanks!
How about you telling me your real name, age, home adress, yearly income, how often do you sleep with your wife and do you sleep with someone else? If you refuse, I say that you violate my right to seek and receive information (see article 19).
If you walk on the street and see a 10 years old boy, you can not express to him your opinion, that your penis is bigger than his, even if it is true. You can, however, go to some site and post that you met a boy on the street, but your penis is bigger than his.
You can express any opinions as long, as you do it in the appropriate place. You don't have a right to express your opinions in other people's faces. Thing that you can not get is that if human rights assumed pride parades, countries that signed human rights declaration at 1948 would have started those parades right away. Which is not the case at all.
As I already said, those guys are criminal scum that are not being caught yet. They also operate in some pretty distant towns of russia, which, of course doesn't make them any less horrible, but does make them less of a representation of what's happening in the more civilized western part of Russia. However, if you are LGBT activist who feels like coming over and contribute to punishing them, I give you a very warm welcome.
Have you seen from this very same article, that as of right now there's grand total zero people that were convicted under this law. Meanwhile, it is now two monthes old. You have to show the article about this guy, who isn't even convicted yet, because there's no one convicted and fined under this law. Nonetheless, if you care about him, you can follow his VK page. So, two monthes in and there's not a single $150 fine issued yet. Definitely a gays witch hunt going on!
Funny thing that right after I told you what you need/should do to stop teens suicide nobody really responded with anything like "yeah, that's what we probably should do". Everyone just kept attacks which makes me think that you don't care about russian gay teens all that much.
You said yourself that the law is too vague and needs to be targeted MORE towards gays, but you haven't answered what about gays is different than any another non-traditional sexual relationship that you think the law is necessary to target only gays.
I guess, I didn't word it well enough, I didn't mean that it should target gays rather than lesbians or something, I just used "gays" as a general definition on LGBT. I basically meant any relationships that are not between one man and one woman, provided neither of them have changed sex during their life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by photon
Also, you never answered the question of why this law is needed. All you said is that people want the law, that they're tired of gay people promoting, but you still haven't given a reason exactly what it is that people are tired of.
I figured, that the debate on why the law is needed will take things a little bit away from more important issues, such as protecting gay teens (for which I outlined a plan) and violation of human rights (which it doesn't). And given that the discussion is a bit too big as it is, adding yet another branch to it would be too much.
So, you guys are up in arms against the law, under which there's been grand total 0 fines this far. Yet in other countries gays are being executed and somehow that's ok. It is like you are LGBT activist, who sees arabian gay being hanged, and he tells him: "Oh, sorry, I really wish I could save you, but my hands are tied, because Olympics are in Russia, not in Arabia, so I'm powerless to help". The whole argument that this issue is so big because Russia hosts Olympics is rudiculous. In my ####ty backwards country I used to think that human rights are important everywhere. You seem to be WAY more concerned with using Olympics PR momentum to promote LGBT views than to actually help those LGBTs, who are really suffering.
1. How about you telling me your real name, age, home adress, yearly income, how often do you sleep with your wife and do you sleep with someone else? If you refuse, I say that you violate my right to seek and receive information (see article 19).
2. If you walk on the street and see a 10 years old boy, you can not express to him your opinion, that your penis is bigger than his, even if it is true. You can, however, go to some site and post that you met a boy on the street, but your penis is bigger than his.
You can express any opinions as long, as you do it in the appropriate place. You don't have a right to express your opinions in other people's faces. Thing that you can not get is that if human rights assumed pride parades, countries that signed human rights declaration at 1948 would have started those parades right away. Which is not the case at all.
3. Have you seen from this very same article, that as of right now there's grand total zero people that were convicted under this law. Meanwhile, it is now two monthes old. You have to show the article about this guy, who isn't even convicted yet, because there's no one convicted and fined under this law. Nonetheless, if you care about him, you can follow his VK page. So, two monthes in and there's not a single $150 fine issued yet. Definitely a gays witch hunt going on!
4. Funny thing that right after I told you what you need/should do to stop teens suicide nobody really responded with anything like "yeah, that's what we probably should do". Everyone just kept attacks which makes me think that you don't care about russian gay teens all that.
1. Maybe you should ensure you aren't violating other human rights while you try and make your point, Article 12:
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks
The thing you're unable to understand is that you have the right to seek and receive information, and to impart information. That is not the same as demanding information. You have every right to ASK for information, RECEIVE information, and PROVIDE information. In this instance, you've provided even further evidence of Russia's violation of human rights, as to RECEIVE information is to be given the OPPORTUNITY to HEAR provided information. No one can bar you from hearing or reading provided information. This does not mean you have the right to demand information, but rather that when information is presented, you have the right to absorb it. Every time you try to twist actual laws and human rights, you look worse and worse. It's becoming embarrassing for you.
2. You're using an outlandish example to make it sounds inappropriate.
If a 10 year old boy is on the street and you say "the Conservative government is a sham" then that is fully within reason of the law. You can express your opinion to anybody regardless of age. "It's ok to be gay" is not wrong, perverse, or even an opinion, it is FACT. If someone casually told a child "It's ok to be white" the Russian government would not come down on them, why? What difference is there?
3. Oh sorry, do you Russians have a magical justice system that is able to run people through the system within a month? Because I THOUGHT most things took more than a month. Hey, if I want to fight a parking ticket it takes a month and a half to get a date, and sorry, the Russian justice system isn't nearly comparable to Canada. You're grasping straws trying to make a point of this. The man was charged for a simple sign he held in the city centre, and he will likely be convicted of the offence. This sign goes against the lies you've been telling about "what is allowed" and made it extremely clear that you're interested in lying and stretching the truth in whatever way you please to make your point. Shame.
4. What have you done? Anything? You don't care about Russian teens either. Want to know why people aren't listening or taking you seriously? Because of your unwavering support of bigotry and hate under an embarrassing guise of humanity. Just stop. We get it. You're creating a red herring to distract people and attempt to make everyone look worse. Trust me, you've made yourself look worse than anyone else could have.
