Would you support Rainbow on Hockey Unis for Sochi?

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Showing off that you are proud to be gay is like showing off that you are proud to be white. I'm sure if whites of Canada would ask for a White People Pride parade to celebrate that they happened to be born white and they are enjoying being white, they would be denied. Same with gay parades.

You are using an example of convenience on this one. "White people" are the only group that it would be frowned upon in Canada to have a "pride" parade. The reasons behind this are many and obviously well know, and yes indeed very debatable, but that's not the point of this discussion.

The point is, any minority group, whether that be based on race, religion, beliefs or sexual orientation would be allowed to organize a "pride" parade in Canada as a basic right, and that is what the relevant comparison is in your example, not the very complex reasons why this doesn't apply to white people in Canada. Russia is denying this community basic human rights, the fact that you can cherry pick examples that try ton suit your argument doesn't change that.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

The point is, any minority group, whether that be based on race, religion, beliefs or sexual orientation would be allowed to organize a "pride" parade in Canada as a basic right, and that is what the relevant comparison is in your example, not the very complex reasons why this doesn't apply to white people in Canada. Russia is denying this community basic human rights, the fact that you can cherry pick examples that try ton suit your argument doesn't change that.

Take a look at actual UN declaration of human rights and try to find anything about gay parades here. Basic human rights were declared at 1948. Gay parades started decades later. They have nothing to do with human rights.

The "you are violating human rights, you backwards scum" attitude will get you nowhere.

If you really want to help russian gay teens — which I doubt, as you seems too busy to pile on Russia instead — you should collaborate with Russians on preventing gay teens bullying. As I said, the law against bullying is already there. You could campaign for the age of application going down from 16 to 14. You can gather facts of gay teens being bullied into suicide and bring it to public, but also to judges, because the law against bullying is there already. If you really want to DO SOMETHING, this is what you should do. But the way most of you act, it seems, like you are more interested in showing off (I don't mean this thread, but patches idea) and piling on Russia.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by strombad

I think it's clear that Pointman's views, while easily expressed, are not easily or clearly understood as it flies in the face of what most 1st world countries believe. I don't believe that any amount of us putting it clearly is going to make him see that "Oh! This IS wrong!"

If your goal is really to help gay teens, you don't need me to change my views. I support protecting gay teens. I armed you with Russian law, that will put anyone, who bullied gay teen into suicide, in jail, provided they are 16 (and still give them a lot of heat if they are U16). If you are LGBT activist, whose goal is to help gay teens, you need to communicate it to your russian friends and begin some sort of activity to bring bulliers to justice. You can set up some sort of hot line so gay kids could call in and say that they are being bullied. Then you can talk with bulliers and their parents and spell it out to them that in case gay teen will commit suicide, bulliers will go to jail. You don't need new laws, they are already there. You don't need to cancel Putin's law for it either. I guess, you were going so hard against Putin law is because you didn't know about anti-bulliers law. The reason why this debate is this long is not because my views are dumb or anything, but because you keep repeating "you are violating human rights, you backwards scum" like a broken record.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

We saw just last year here in Ottawa the son of a city councillor committed suicide because he was being bullied and tormented for being gay.

In Russia bulliers in this case would go to jail. Were they punished in Ottawa?

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Pointman

1. We are going in circles. You can express your gayness. So this law doesn't violate it.

2. By this logic, can Russian players wear patches against inequity and violation of human rights in USA constitution? Every issue needs attention.

3. Is simply false. You can visit sites like www.gay.ru and www.lgbtnet.ru to have sane discussion of homosexuality. You can also visit one of several gay clubs in Moscow (I gave the map of it some pages ago) to discuss it. This article is full of hate and lie. If you judge about russian LGBT situation by such articles, there's no wonder we can't understand each other.

4. EDIT: And Occupie pedofilay is not anti-gay group, they are anti-pedofilya group, as you can see by the name.

5. How about me doing vidoes of London riot, Paris riot, or Stockholm riot? Or Vancouver riot for that matter? What is has to do with this law, Olympics and human rights?

1. It does, as it restricts your right to expression.

2. Yes!

3. Interesting that you comment on "hate and lie" while promoting Russian propaganda that attempts to cloud the issue of how difficult it is to be LGBT in Russia.

4. As with many anti-gay groups, they associate pedophiles with the gay community. This is rooted in ignorance and bigotry. They constantly attack the gay community under the guise of being "against pedophilia", which they inexcusably link with homosexuality, and lump all homosexuals in with pedophiles.

5. You're comparing riots against a hockey team losing vs. what I posted?
Your lapse in logic is astounding.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by strombad

1. It does, as it restricts your right to expression.

Article 19.

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.


This was formulated at 10 dec 1948. It is about expressing opinions. It has nothing to do with gay parades, there were no pride parades back then and it was post-WWII world looking for really basic human rights to prevent second nazism. This article was mainly against brain-washing by goverment (hence receive any information outside of frontiers, to resist dictatorship propaganda). It means, that you are free to have any opinion and express it. It by no means implies that you have a right to promote gayness to children. You can express your opinion on gayness in Russia, whatever this opinion is. We do have open gays among celebraties. Some of them are even singing lesbian anthems.

Originally Posted by strombad

3. Interesting that you comment on "hate and lie" while promoting Russian propaganda that attempts to cloud the issue of how difficult it is to be LGBT in Russia.

Please tell me, where exactly did I post any Russian propaganda?

Originally Posted by strombad

4. As with many anti-gay groups, they associate pedophiles with the gay community. This is rooted in ignorance and bigotry. They constantly attack the gay community under the guise of being "against pedophilia", which they inexcusably link with homosexuality, and lump all homosexuals in with pedophiles.

You are wrong, but it is irrelevant. Those guys are outlaw scum. Even if they were indeed killing gays, they are just outlaw scum that will be erased sooner (hopefully) or later. Canceling Putin's law will have no effect on it and they were formed before this law. There's no way what they do is allowed under Russian law.

Originally Posted by strombad

5. You're comparing riots against a hockey team losing vs. what I posted?
Your lapse in logic is astounding.

No, my point was that we all can post some horrifying videos about Russia and Canada/Western world till cows come home. And it has nothing to do with the discussion.


Anyway, I assume, that those who were really interested in achieving goals of protecting gay teens from being bullied got something useful from my last few posts and it was hopefully a constructive outcome of the discussion (and I'm shocked that this was ever achieved, but now I believe, that it was). I'm done for today and probably tommorrow.

[Alberta_Beef]

I just want to thank Pointman for posting the different links and such. I appreciate you trying to explain why you feel these laws are in place and what they mean.

I also want to point out (unless I missed it somewhere) he has never posted any opinions that are anti-gay.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Take a look at actual UN declaration of human rights and try to find anything about gay parades here. Basic human rights were declared at 1948. Gay parades started decades later. They have nothing to do with human rights.

Article 1.

• All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.

A law that takes away from gays a freedom of expression that straight people have violates this.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by SebC

A law that takes away from gays a freedom of expression that straight people have violates this.

Is freedom of expression actually considered a basic human right?

This is a serious question, but I don't believe it actually is.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

Is freedom of expression actually considered a basic human right?

This is a serious question, but I don't believe it actually is.

It is:

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

Article 19.

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by strombad

It is:

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

Article 19.

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Thanks. I find it interesting it is focused mostly on holding an opinion and seeking information.

That tells me it is a right to make information/opinions available to others, but it is not a right to push that information/opinion. So take these rights as such:

Sharing sought after information is a protected right
Protests are not protected
Pushing information through propaganda is not protected


If Pointman is accurate in his description of the laws, then the laws in Russia really doesn't violate human rights since he believes the law is more or less in place to stop people from pushing information.

To me it seems like it would be like a law being put in place here that stops Mormons & JW's from going door to door promoting their religion and stopping them from sharing their religious beliefs with children under 18.

I have no problem with the law if that is indeed how it is intended.

But I do have problems if the laws are abused and used to unlawful imprison or hurt people based on their sexuality.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

Is freedom of expression actually considered a basic human right?

This is a serious question, but I don't believe it actually is.

Equality in freedom of expression (and any other rights granted by a government) is the basic human right being violated. Just like marriage is not a basic human right but equality in marriage rights is.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

1. Thanks. I find it interesting it is focused mostly on holding an opinion and seeking information.
That tells me it is a right to make information/opinions available to others, but it is not a right to push that information/opinion. So take these rights as such:
Sharing sought after information is a protected right
Protests are not protected
Pushing information through propaganda is not protected


2. If Pointman is accurate in his description of the laws, then the laws in Russia really doesn't violate human rights since he believes the law is more or less in place to stop people from pushing information.

1. I'm not sure how you find it interesting that it is mostly focused on "holding and opinion and seeking information" when the line CLEARLY states: "to seek, receive, and impart information and ideas of all kinds". It very clearly states receiving and imparting as equal to seeking, but however you choose to ignore certain words is up to you. Imparting is the act of communicating or conveying information to others. This is a basic human right (as outlined above) and should be taken with equal levity.

Here is the official definition of propaganda:
Noun
Information, esp. of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view.
The dissemination of such information as a political strategy.

The problem here is that Russia is not using the official definition of propaganda, and rather using their own interpretation which has not been made clear to anyone. To you and I, gay propaganda would be "being gay makes you live for ever!", in Russia, gay propaganda could be "being gay is just fine and it's ok to be gay". They are not saying it's illegal to lie to children (which is what propaganda is rooted in) but rather that it is illegal to TALK to children about being gay IN GENERAL. This is not in line with what propaganda is, but they have distorted the word for their own use.

Furthermore, as far as protests go, protests are a perceived right based on the following:
- freedom of assembly
- freedom of speech
- freedom of association

These are all basic human rights, and the problem of this law denying people of these things is what is causing this debate.

2. The problem with that is we're assuming Pointman is unbiased in his presentation of information. His "interpretation" of the law and what is occurring in Russia is one of thousands. For a different perspective on how the law is affecting the LGBT community in Russia, I'd invite you to read this article, which includes interviews from the actual LGBT community in Russia, not the opinion of one guy on CP:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...hobic-violence

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Then there's one more question that you will definitely face if you do those patches:

WHY RUSSIA?

You can argue till you are blue in your face, that this law violates human rights, but there are many countries where you will be senteced to death for the mere fact that you are gay. How comes you ignore death penalty for homosexuality in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Mauritania and other countries? Why are you up in arms to save Russian LGBT from $150 fine yet you do nothing to save arabian gays from death? Russia may be the host of the next Olympics, but what exactly prevents you from wearing anti-Arabia patches in Russia? Olympics are broadcasted globally and even if you wear anti-Russian patches in Russia, 99% of Russians will only see them on TV anyway. Aside from obvious yet right questions such as "How many people died of hunger while you were preparing rainbow patches" and "How many medicines for dying children you could buy with cash you spent on this campaign", there are even stronger ones. Even if you somehow happen to think that LGBT rights are more important than world poverty and cancer, how on earth are you going to convince people that $150 fine is more evil, than death sentence? You are now hell bent to prove that it violates human rights, while being ignorant and blind to screaming violations of human rights, including LGBT rights, in other countries. Isn't it because you are a bit biased against Russia? Or could it be that corporations are afraid to lose Russian gay market? I mean, if you save gay from death sentence in some african jungle, he will not come to spend money on local gay clubs and gay porn. Such a strange selectiveness will make people question your underlying motives.

While I can't speak for everyone, I imagine it's because most people who didn't know better are surprised to find out just how backwards and ****ed up Russia still is on issues like this. I think most find the idea of an industrialized nation passing a draconian law like this exceptionally odd and that's why you're seeing such a reaction. In fact, it's not that people are biased against Russia, but rather the opposite. I think most people in the West held the Russian people in a reasonably high regard and laws like this are fairly shocking and demonstrate that they probably gave Russian society too much credit.

The fact that you think that average peoples' outrage is rooted in corporations not wanting to lose the Russian gay market illustrates that you are simply on another planet from the rest of the industrialized world on this issue and are grasping at straws to explain your anomalous views on LGBT rights within that context.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by SebC

A law that takes away from gays a freedom of expression that straight people have violates this.

Straight people don't have freedom to do straight pride parades.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by strombad

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...hobic-violence

That piece just enforces things I have been saying.

The problem is the vigilantism and views of the citizens of Russia and not the laws themselves IMO.

And pro-gay literature being passed out is by definition propaganda since it is clearly biased, so not sure what you were trying to prove there.

That link also talks about stats that show that show that Russians in general see homosexuality differently than we do here. Like I have been preaching from the get go we need to understand why their line of thinking is what it is and change the way they think. And this can't be done over night, it takes generations, because you have to educate people before they are taught to hate with false information.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Straight people don't have freedom to do straight pride parades.

Sure they do. However the vast, vast majority would know that it would be in extremely poor taste. But there is no law prohibiting it.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by strombad

1. I'm not sure how you find it interesting that it is mostly focused on "holding and opinion and seeking information" when the line CLEARLY states: "to seek, receive, and impart information and ideas of all kinds". It very clearly states receiving and imparting as equal to seeking, but however you choose to ignore certain words is up to you. Imparting is the act of communicating or conveying information to others. This is a basic human right (as outlined above) and should be taken with equal levity.

You can receive and impart any information on gayness. Go to www.gay.ru and receive and impart anything you want.

Originally Posted by strombad

Here is the official definition of propaganda:
Noun
Information, esp. of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view.
The dissemination of such information as a political strategy.

The law

It is prohibited to PROMOTE MISLEADING information that leads to forming a DISTORTED opinion about non-traditional sexual relationships among underage people.

Originally Posted by strombad

The problem here is that Russia is not using the official definition of propaganda, and rather using their own interpretation which has not been made clear to anyone.

It is made as clear, as google translator can, and the wording is pretty close to your definition of propaganda.

Originally Posted by strombad

2. The problem with that is we're assuming Pointman is unbiased in his presentation of information. His "interpretation" of the law and what is occurring in Russia is one of thousands.

The problem is that you can't grasp that I am linking you the text of ACTUAL LAW! It is NOT interpretaion. It can not be one of a thousands, there's only one text of law. It can not be biased. Not only I explained in lengths on what is and what is not allowed, but I linked it to you twice so you can google translate it and see yourself.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Sure they do. However the vast, vast majority would know that it would be in extremely poor taste. But there is no law prohibiting it.

There is. Gays can't do pride parades and neither can straights. You also can not publicly state that straights are better than gays.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by opendoor

The fact that you think that average peoples' outrage is rooted in corporations not wanting to lose the Russian gay market illustrates that you are simply on another planet from the rest of the industrialized world on this issue and are grasping at straws to explain your anomalous views on LGBT rights within that context.

If the goal is indeed to save gay teens from being bullied into suicide, I gave you a clear and detailed plan on how you can do it within current laws. If you don't want to do it and want to do something else it makes me question underlying motives. And no, average people outrage is rooted into false misinformation spread out by western media. The fact that you called a $150 fine law "draconian" says a lot. If you look back in the thread, you see people believing that you will get into jail if you hold hands on the street with another gay. My point about gay market was about the reason why western media are doing it. I could be wrong though, they may have another — just as unraif — reason to do it.