Golf!!!2!

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Slava

Sounds like a bit of a stretch!

We had dinner at 7PM and teed off at 8PM. Round was then over 11:30PM and everybody went home. No after round drinking.

[mrkajz44]

Question to the CP golf trust on trying to play matches between players of different skill level.

I often play with guys who are single digit handicaps whereas I'm in the mid-teens. I do enjoy playing some sort of match with the game, but I've found the low handicap guys just don't want to give the proper amount of strokes advantage to me. The complaint is usually along the lines of "if you get a par on a hole that you get a stroke on, then I need to birdie just for a half and that's not fair". I can't seem to drill into their head that a par for a mid-teens handicapper is generally a pretty good score, so it makes sense that if I par I should be winning the hole more often than not (or at least ending up with a half at worst). For my skill level, I essentially treat pars as "effective birdies" and bogeys as "effective pars".

Has anyone else had similar issues like this? At this point the only solution is to say I don't want to play a match, which would be a shame. It just seems like the low handicappers don't like to lose because they are objectively better, but that's obviously not fair to players like myself. Any suggestions?

[CarlLester]

Ha! That happens at every club. I never buy the 'not fair' argument - if the handicaps are legit, then it is absolutely fair. The murky part comes when the high handicapper magically shoots their handicap or better every single time in competition. To be clear that is not a comment directed at you at all.

In our groups if there is any dispute about handicap, there will be a bit of a negotiation that typically works out to 80% or so of handicap but it really depends on the people involved. Also depending on the 'seriousness' of the match, Ive seen it played where rather than give say, 8 strokes, the low cap player allows the higher guy 8 mulligans. I'll do whatever makes a match happen - if at worst I lose and have to by my buddy a beer on the patio afterwards, then so be it!

[Weitz]

Not really sure what to say. They don’t want to use handicap so they can win without having to play well. There’s not much to discuss.

I won’t play for money against people who won’t use real handicaps.

[8sPOT]

Unless someone is sandbagging then it should really just be simple math. If you're a 15 playing against a 5 then you get 10 strokes, 1 stroke on each of the 10 hardest holes.

[nfotiu]

I would suspect a low handicapper who can't win a handicapped match has a bit of a vanity handicap. Probably not putting in their bad rounds and taking long gimmes, etc. But that's on them.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by mrkajz44

Question to the CP golf trust on trying to play matches between players of different skill level.

I often play with guys who are single digit handicaps whereas I'm in the mid-teens. I do enjoy playing some sort of match with the game, but I've found the low handicap guys just don't want to give the proper amount of strokes advantage to me. The complaint is usually along the lines of "if you get a par on a hole that you get a stroke on, then I need to birdie just for a half and that's not fair". I can't seem to drill into their head that a par for a mid-teens handicapper is generally a pretty good score, so it makes sense that if I par I should be winning the hole more often than not (or at least ending up with a half at worst). For my skill level, I essentially treat pars as "effective birdies" and bogeys as "effective pars".

Has anyone else had similar issues like this? At this point the only solution is to say I don't want to play a match, which would be a shame. It just seems like the low handicappers don't like to lose because they are objectively better, but that's obviously not fair to players like myself. Any suggestions?

I can empathize with someone who's a scratch golfer and they're giving someone say 15 strokes. That seems pretty brutal. But the truth is, if those are both legitimate handicaps you're only shooting that about 1/5 rounds. So that guy who gets 15 strokes today might actually "need" 18-19 to finish at par and the scratch golfer could finish -2.

As everyone else suggests, the entire point of handicapping is to make it an even playing field. Why even play a match with someone who is ~10 strokes better than you? The outcome is basically pre-determined.

[Derek Sutton]

Originally Posted by 8sPOT

Unless someone is sandbagging then it should really just be simple math. If you're a 15 playing against a 5 then you get 10 strokes, 1 stroke on each of the 10 hardest holes.

This. Its very simple really.

[bigrangy]

The ups and downs of golf always keep me coming back.

Shot a 50 on the front, lost 4 balls, didn’t make a GIR, only made one fairway after a good bounce off a tree.

Had an awful chicken burger, then went off and made 3 birdies on the back and finished with an even par 36. Sometimes the game cooperates.

[Enoch Root]

As several people have said, the handicap system levels the playing field, so it's a no-brainer. But in order to work, everyone needs to calculate their handicap, and those handicaps need to be an accurate reflection. If so, the system of giving strokes is completely fair.

One problem that happens a lot - especially with higher handicappers, but with many people who aren't members of a club, is that they don't actually track their handicap, so they guesstimate, using an average score. Handicaps are not averages. But a high handicapper who doesn't have a calculated number, is likely to think "I typically shoot about 90, so I am an 18". No, this is flat out wrong. Your handicap isn't an average, it reflects about the 80th percentile of your scoring range - you should only expect to shoot your handicap (or better), one round in 5.

I was in a match play tournament once, playing a guy who didn't have a handicap, and he said he 'usually shoots over 100' and thus claimed to be a 30. I was (officially) a 16 at the time, so I had to give him 14 strokes. As it quickly became evident, we were actually at pretty equivalent skill levels, and we both ended up shooting 90, so he obliterated me in the match. Simply because he had no idea what a handicap was, or what it should have been.

I have experienced this sort of thing many times, and I find low handicappers quickly become reluctant to give full strokes to high handicappers, often because the high handicappers number is more likely to be less indicative of their actual ability.

[mrkajz44]

Okay, seems like there is no good solution other than demanding that the handicaps be used to level the field or there is no match. I sympathize with Enoch where guys don't keep a handicap, but I hope low handicappers do understand that high handicappers have a very wide range of scores and can occasionally crush their handicap. The high handicap is the lack of ability to keep it together for 18 holes, not that the raw skill isn't there. I've gone as low as 82 and as high as 97 this year - it's a wide spread.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by mrkajz44

Okay, seems like there is no good solution other than demanding that the handicaps be used to level the field or there is no match. I sympathize with Enoch where guys don't keep a handicap, but I hope low handicappers do understand that high handicappers have a very wide range of scores and can occasionally crush their handicap. The high handicap is the lack of ability to keep it together for 18 holes, not that the raw skill isn't there. I've gone as low as 82 and as high as 97 this year - it's a wide spread.

But again, it isn't an average. And no, you shouldn't be able to 'crush' your handicap (excluding that one, 'game of the year' round)

Handicaps are calculated using only the best 8 of your last 20 rounds. And even those 8 are filtered for high scores on individual holes. Let's say you're a 13 and you shoot 87. Do you post that you shot 15 over? Depends, as a 13, you can only count (for handicap purposes) a double bogey on any given hole. So if you had a quad in that 87, you are supposed to post the round as n 85.

Now, once you have done this for a period of time, you will have scores in the 90s or over a hundred, but none of them will count. Only the best 8 scores, which are probably going to range from maybe 82 to 88 are going to count. And you are going to end up as (or continue to be, if you've been doing it for a while) somewhere around 13 or 14.

Once you have this handicap of 13 or 14, having had scores ranging from low 80s to high 90s. you realize that 'crushing' your handicap simply doesn't, or shouldn't happen. Again, I understand that high handicappers have more volatility in their scoring, but the system largely filters that out.

Your handicap reflects the TOP of your ability, not the average of it.

[Enoch Root]

if you shoot 'as low as 82 and as high as 97' you are probably somewhere between a 12 and 14 if you track it properly. But people that don't track it would say 'well I shoot from 82 to 97 so I am probably an 18' (averaging at 90)

[Enoch Root]

BTW, the Golf Canada site is an excellent resource and you can (properly) track your handicap there

golfcanada.ca

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

But again, it isn't an average. And no, you shouldn't be able to 'crush' your handicap (excluding that one, 'game of the year' round)

Handicaps are calculated using only the best 8 of your last 20 rounds. And even those 8 are filtered for high scores on individual holes. Let's say you're a 13 and you shoot 87. Do you post that you shot 15 over? Depends, as a 13, you can only count (for handicap purposes) a double bogey on any given hole. So if you had a quad in that 87, you are supposed to post the round as n 85.

Now, once you have done this for a period of time, you will have scores in the 90s or over a hundred, but none of them will count. Only the best 8 scores, which are probably going to range from maybe 82 to 88 are going to count. And you are going to end up as (or continue to be, if you've been doing it for a while) somewhere around 13 or 14.

Once you have this handicap of 13 or 14, having had scores ranging from low 80s to high 90s. you realize that 'crushing' your handicap simply doesn't, or shouldn't happen. Again, I understand that high handicappers have more volatility in their scoring, but the system largely filters that out.

Your handicap reflects the TOP of your ability, not the average of it.

ESC is net double bogey for everyone now. You'd hope the higher handicapper is using ESC or entering hole by hole scores. If he's leaving 10 in his entered score, then he's sandbagging.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

ESC is net double bogey for everyone now. You'd hope the higher handicapper is using ESC or entering hole by hole scores. If he's leaving 10 in his entered score, then he's sandbagging.

You'd hope, but most high handicappers simply do not know that they are supposed to do this.

Again, that is why the Golf Canada site is great - you can submit your scores hole by hole, and it filters it correctly, automatically.

But until everyone is doing it properly, handicaps will continue to be a huge source of contention

[Northendzone]

as a crappy golfer who rarely tracks his full score nevermind handicap, if i was playing in a situation where handicap was a factor i would say to my group that i normally shoot about 115 - so whatever, you want to assign me for a handicap that is fine with me, as i would not expect to beat them even with allowances for our respective handicaps as i would likely crumble due to the pressure somewhere on the back 9

[Lanny_McDonald]

Part of the problem with handicap is people take their handicap and do a straight comparison rather than working in course rating from given tees to arrive at the appropriate number of strokes/holes to give. It's why low handicappers fear high handicappers. It's also why many clubs are going to flights so you don't have to worry about a four handicap getting their head caved in by a high handicapper who has a good night. The variability in handicap that Enoch refers to is the kicker here and should let people understand the concern.

A low handicap is likely to have a low scoring variance, so a good round not being much better than his bad. A high handicapper is likely to have a much broader variance and the bad round is significantly worse than their good round, which is why their handicap is what it is. So the fear is that on a given night when both players have good rounds, the low handicapper is likely to approach the lower limit of their scoring band, then have their handicap trimmed off. The high handicapper will do the same, but their best rounds are way better than their average score, then they get the stroke advantage and the outcome is predictably bad for the better player.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Part of the problem with handicap is people take their handicap and do a straight comparison rather than working in course rating from given tees to arrive at the appropriate number of strokes/holes to give. It's why low handicappers fear high handicappers. It's also why many clubs are going to flights so you don't have to worry about a four handicap getting their head caved in by a high handicapper who has a good night. The variability in handicap that Enoch refers to is the kicker here and should let people understand the concern.

A low handicap is likely to have a low scoring variance, so a good round not being much better than his bad. A high handicapper is likely to have a much broader variance and the bad round is significantly worse than their good round, which is why their handicap is what it is. So the fear is that on a given night when both players have good rounds, the low handicapper is likely to approach the lower limit of their scoring band, then have their handicap trimmed off. The high handicapper will do the same, but their best rounds are way better than their average score, then they get the stroke advantage and the outcome is predictably bad for the better player.

Agreed that too many people use their index and not the course handicap, but that usually is to the detriment of the higher handicapper. As long as the slope rating is over 113 and everyone is playing from the same tees, the higher handicapper will get more strokes using course handicaps vs indexes.

Yeah, if everyone is using different tees, then yeah it could go either way.

Playing 1v1, if everyone has a proper handicap, should be a tossup on who wins on any given day. A high handicapper is just as likely to have a blow up round that doesn't give him a chance as he does of going low enough to make it tough on the lower handicapper to win. Part of the problem is that lower handicappers seem to think they should win more than the high handicappers because they are better, but that's not how it is supposed to work.

In a big tournament, I can see the lower handicappers having a bit more of a beef, because there is a good chance that a higher handicapper may have a round of their year that is going to be a tough score to beat for someone who isn't getting strokes. But really winning a handicapped tournament is all about fun and betting and not really bragging rights. Also if conditions are tough, I've noticed the lower handicaps tend to dominate.

[GomerPile]

The whole handicap debate became a huge issue in our Men’s league about a decade ago. So, we bought a new computer track the scores and you now have a mens league handicap, that is filled out on the score card prior to the round. There was just as much issue with vanity handicaps as there was sandbaggers. Now, the league is very competitive. (It’s a team league, where each hole is worth a point, match play style)