2020/2021 Trade Speculation and Rumours

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

To Columbus:

Monahan, Hanifin +2nd

To Calgary:

Dubois, Savard

Who says no?

The 2nd is unnecessary.

Although the deal is fair, I don't like the deal because it all of a sudden makes our LD a bit on the weak side and makes our RD too strong. Tanev or Savard would have to be on the bottom pairing, and if Gio either takes a step back or gets injured, we're relying on Valimaki to take the top pairing spot as the LD. I don't believe Savard or Tanev are strong on their off side.

We do have Mackey and Nesterov, but I trust in Hanifin more than those two at this current moment.

[Ashasx]

nm

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

BAD:
- Brouwer
- Neal
- Raymond

GOOD:
- Ryan
- Engelland
- Frolik
- Markstrom

MARGINAL:
- Hiller
- Czarnik
- Tanev?

It's not great, but it is also not that bad, either. What did I miss? (You will notice I am counting only multi-year deals )

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

I could have sworn that Engelland was a Feaster signing, but you are indeed right - Treliving's (good) work. I didn't mind that signing in the least when it was announced, and I agree that it definitely became a good signing indeed.


However, when checking to see which GM gave him that contract, I ran across this overreaction... I must say, it made me chuckle.


https://www.matchsticksandgasoline.c...of-free-agency


That's why I won't criticize the Tanev deal too much. I actually don't like that deal, but I don't think it will be too bad, with a possibility that the Flames either lose him in the expansion draft, and that Tanev actually has a chance (much like Engelland did!) to live up to it.

[blender]

One thing that bugs me about the revisionist history that goes on constantly around here is that often it doesn't even utilize any of the benefits of hindsight.

Stone: Great player, but Vegas hasn't done anything of significance since they acquired him. If you were to use a common metric that is used here a lot you could say they have gotten worse since they haven't improved on their trip to the Finals. I'm actually glad that he isn't on the Flames given the 10 x 7 cap hit and no Valimaki (I know I'm not the only one)

Hall: Good player, yes, but another winger that still has all the warts we used to laugh at the Oilers about. Not saying he wouldn't have helped the Flames, but given the potential acquisition cost, I'm glad he's elsewhere.

Dubois: Story is unwritten, but some of the posters offering 2 premium roster players and a first have obviously lost it. Don't get me wrong, he certainly looks like he could be a very good center in the NHL, maybe top-30 or better. BUT, today he is a prospect that has yet to put it all together.

If we are going to talk about how Treliving is a bad GM because of all the players he "missed" maybe we need to have an honest appraisal of what he missed on.

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

BAD:
- Brouwer
- Neal
- Raymond

GOOD:
- Ryan
- Engelland
- Frolik
- Markstrom

MARGINAL:
- Hiller
- Czarnik
- Tanev?

It's not great, but it is also not that bad, either. What did I miss? (You will notice I am counting only multi-year deals )

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

Warning: this is going to be a very negative post. Let me apologize now.

I must be a tough critic because I think all 10 of these signings are pretty bad, or decent at best. I guess the Frolik signing was the best, but he was never really underpaid or anything. Same goes for Ryan. I think Ryan's cap hit could probably be better used in other areas. Very useful player though. I think the Talbot signing was pretty good, but again, he wasn't underpaid.
And I realize it's unfair to expect UFA signings to result in underpaid players. But it has happened before:

The Tanguay (Sutter) and Huddler (Feaster) signings were far better than any of these. Morrison and Jokinen also signed friendly deals as UFAs. They were legitimately underpaid. Morrison played as the number one center and made less than 2 mill. Jokinen always played as a number one center and put up 60+ points. When Tanguay returned to Calgary, he made pretty much nothing. Glencross also signed in Calgary as a UFA. This ended up being a steal.

I think the Tanev signing will end up being Treliving's third worst signing after the Neal and Brouwer signings (and I hated both of those signings the moment they were announced). However, unlike the Neal, Raymond, and Brouwer signings, I think Tanev will at least be decent for a year or two. Assuming he isn't injured. The 4.5 million would have been better spent on Vatanen + Haula, or Hoffman, or acquiring Nate Schmidt. Plus, these contracts wouldn't have had bad term. As for Markstrom, he's a great goalie, but I will be shocked if this contract doesn't cripple the team when he is 34, 35, and 36 years old. No UFA signed goalie has ever won the cup in the history of the NHL. And even so, there are younger goalies who will be UFAs next year (Grubauer, Binnington, if I'm not mistaken). Good goalies usually become available prior to expansion drafts.

But I think Treliving's biggest failures have actually been in coaching decisions (either this or goalie acquisitions).
Hartley was solid. Gulutzan was cataclysmic. Peters was okay, but Treliving failed to do a proper background check. Ward is fine, but there were clearly better options available. Gerard Gallant and Bruce Boudreau and clearly far superior coaches by any metric.

[AC]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

And even so, there are younger goalies who will be UFAs next year (Grubauer, Binnington, if I'm not mistaken). Good goalies usually become available prior to expansion drafts.

Grubauer is 29, and has played 36, 37, and 35 games the last 3 seasons.
Markstrom turns 31 at the end of the month but has at least managed to play the amount of games expected from a #1 in a season.

I get the overall cynicism when it comes to the Flames, and time will tell of course when it comes to Tanev and Markstrom, but I think Markstrom is a homerun.

My main counter to most of your arguments and preferred signings is simply to keep in mind how undesirable Calgary is to a free agent. And I say that as a proud Calgarian, but it's the simple truth. We simply don't get to pick and choose our free agents from the open group, it's probably going to take a combination of opportunity and overpay in a lot of cases to sign anyone, and even then it's surely a tough sell given the alternative options out there.

[lazypucker]

Signing Markstrom is a semi-gamble for Treliving because I think he is banking on Wolf to make it as the Flames back up in 3 years, split duties in 4, and become #1 in 5 years. At that point, it will be Markstrom's last or 2nd-last year of the contract.

If this plan falls through, then we are in big trouble.

Is Tanev a better defenceman than Brodie? I am not sure. Did Treliving tried to re-sign Brodie or Brodie had his sight set on Toronto and only Toronto, who knows...

And for any forward signings that come to the Flames, their production will automatically decrease by 15%-20%. It is what it is - typical Flames hockey. It is probably down to the mediocre coaches that the team always seems to latch on to.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

...As for Markstrom, he's a great goalie, but I will be shocked if this contract doesn't cripple the team when he is 34, 35, and 36 years old. No UFA signed goalie has ever won the cup in the history of the NHL.

Dominic Hasek did it in 2002.

...And even so, there are younger goalies who will be UFAs next year (Grubauer, Binnington, if I'm not mistaken). Good goalies usually become available prior to expansion drafts.

Yuck. I will happily pass on both Grubauer and Binnington.

And while there may be a few goalies freed up for the expansion draft I am also pretty confident that not one of them will be as good as Jacob Markstrom.

[djsFlames]

While Hall was enticing on the surface, Markstrom helps us win more than Hall, no question there.

And thankfully we care about winning more than having a "sexier" top 6 on paper.

Certain other teams put their entire focus on what kind of top six they can roll out while neglecting their other positions, but those certain other teams have and will continue to toil in mediocrity.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by lazypucker

Signing Markstrom is a semi-gamble for Treliving because I think he is banking on Wolf to make it as the Flames back up in 3 years, split duties in 4, and become #1 in 5 years. At that point, it will be Markstrom's last or 2nd-last year of the contract.

If this plan falls through, then we are in big trouble.

Is Tanev a better defenceman than Brodie? I am not sure. Did Treliving tried to re-sign Brodie or Brodie had his sight set on Toronto and only Toronto, who knows...

And for any forward signings that come to the Flames, their production will automatically decrease by 15%-20%. It is what it is - typical Flames hockey. It is probably down to the mediocre coaches that the team always seems to latch on to.

lol wat...Lindholm?

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Dominic Hasek did it in 2002.

He was traded to Detroit in 2001.

However, the 2008 Stanley Cup was won by Chris Osgood, with Hasek as his backup (who has started the playoffs as the starter). Both Osgood and Hasek were UFA signings with Detroit.


Also, both Niemi and Thomas were UFA signings.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

Warning: this is going to be a very negative post. Let me apologize now.

As for Markstrom, he's a great goalie, but I will be shocked if this contract doesn't cripple the team when he is 34, 35, and 36 years old. No UFA signed goalie has ever won the cup in the history of the NHL. And even so, there are younger goalies who will be UFAs next year (Grubauer, Binnington, if I'm not mistaken). Good goalies usually become available prior to expansion drafts.

.

Passing on Markstrom for a shot at Grubauer or Binnington would have been foolish. Just because they are UFA’s now, doesn’t mean they will hit the open market at the end of the year either.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Did the Lucic contract cripple the team? No.

1 year of Markstrom not starting on that contract is totally fine. 2 isn’t great, but also far from crippling.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by lazypucker

Signing Markstrom is a semi-gamble for Treliving because I think he is banking on Wolf to make it as the Flames back up in 3 years, split duties in 4, and become #1 in 5 years. At that point, it will be Markstrom's last or 2nd-last year of the contract.

If this plan falls through, then we are in big trouble.

I am sure everyone in Flames management is hoping that Dustin Wolf becomes a starting goalie inside of five years, but I very seriously doubt this is all they have planned for in the meantime.

Besides, what is the alternative? The Flames have a hole in their depth chart in goal because their two, high-end goalies that were drafted over the last decade have both succumbed to injuries and illnesses that have badly derailed their NHL prospects. No one can really plan for that; it just happens, and it sucks.

Is Tanev a better defenceman than Brodie? I am not sure. Did Treliving tried to re-sign Brodie or Brodie had his sight set on Toronto and only Toronto, who knows...

I don't think that Tanev is a better defenseman than Brodie, and I am fairly sure that the Flames tried to re-sign Brodie in free agency.

And for any forward signings that come to the Flames, their production will automatically decrease by 15%-20%. It is what it is - typical Flames hockey. It is probably down to the mediocre coaches that the team always seems to latch on to.

Well, that is silly. Where is your proof of this regression in scoring for forwards in the Flames lineup?

[Robbob]

I think Markstrom contract length is a little blown out of proportion. Goalie do see a decline, but can still very very effective in their mid 30s. Would I bank on him being the start to the end, probably not if one of the younger goalies in our system make it.

At the end of the day, Treliving has been chasing a goalie since he has arrived. It is pretty foundational in the recipe of trying to build a winning team.

[Nelson]

Interestingly, The Athletic just released its top 100 players in the NHL. The Flames have 3 players on the list: Matthew Tkachuk (top-end all-star), Mark Giordano (bottom-end all-star) and Johnny Gaudreau (top-end top-line player).

There are first and second tier MVP level players (7 players), then first and second tier franchise level players (18 players), then first and second tier all-star players (25 players), then first, second and third top line players (50 players).

So, the Athletic believes the Flames have about their proportion of players in terms of numbers, but the Flames don't have any high, high-end players (top 25 players). But Tkachuk and Giordano are top 50, and Gaudreau is top 67.

Anyways, the reason I placed this here is that Pierre Luc Dubois is ranked in the top 67 with Gaudreau, so the Athletic thinks Pierre Luc Dubois is on the same level as Gaudreau. Also, Monahan didn't even make the list, so the Athletic thinks Pierre Luc Dubois is far superior to Monahan.

Anyways, I think this means the Flames should be willing to offer a slight sweetener to Gaudreau to get PLD because of age and position. But the sweetener should only be slight. However, the Flames should be willing to offer a significant sweetener to Monahan.

I think a 1st round pick would be significant.

[MrMike]

Columbus won’t take just two years of another smaller winger for replacing their first line cost and controlled center.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

Did the Lucic contract cripple the team? No.

1 year of Markstrom not starting on that contract is totally fine. 2 isn’t great, but also far from crippling.

The real pain of the Lucic deal was never going to be last year nor this one as much as it will be moving forward. Though I would argue that his 5+ million could be spent elsewhere on the line up much more effectively both last year, now, and in the future.

[Gaskal]

Originally Posted by lazypucker

Signing Markstrom is a semi-gamble for Treliving because I think he is banking on Wolf to make it as the Flames back up in 3 years, split duties in 4, and become #1 in 5 years. At that point, it will be Markstrom's last or 2nd-last year of the contract.

If this plan falls through, then we are in big trouble.

Well if it doesn't, it's not the end of the world... there's always UFA, trade, other goalie prospects, not sure where this hedging of all bets on Wolf is coming from

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by transplant99

The real pain of the Lucic deal was never going to be last year nor this one as much as it will be moving forward. Though I would argue that his 5+ million could be spent elsewhere on the line up much more effectively both last year, now, and in the future.

Could be, absolutely. May have even been great to spend elsewhere.

But it wasn’t crippling. I didn’t quote the post but I was referring to the comment saying Markstroms contract could cripple the team.