2020/2021 Trade Speculation and Rumours

[keenan87]

Originally Posted by heep223

Are Lindholm, Tkachuk, Gio, Rasmus all part of this “crap core” you speak of as well?

Tkachuk and Andersson.. I will give them another year or so. Tkachuk is a big talker but hasn't done much at all in the playoffs. Agitating guys when you are the highest paid player isn't enough. You also need to score.

Lindholm - I want too see him play centre.

Giordano is 100% part of the problem. Has never stepped up in the playoffs.

[Da_Chief]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Flames were trying to trade for Andersen (who was traded for picks) but the Ducks didn’t want to trade him in the division

They weren’t going to outbid the Coyotes in terms of prospects for Hall but apparently offered Hanifin and Bennett for Hall and Vatanen if Hall signed. Glad that fell through as Hall would have cost a lot more last December pre-pandemic

Do you want Josh Andersen and his 7 year deal on the table? Reason the Habs signed that deal was because Andersen said he was signing for 1 year (UFA) or 7 years and wasn’t willing to negotiate anything in between.

Flames would not have been able to keep Stone at the 9.5M cap hit he got from Vegas and it would have cost at least Valimaki and Pelletier.

The Flames didn’t have the picks to make the Kane trade due to the Hamonic deal.

These are weak examples that can be easily torn apart. I also guarantee if some of those moves did go down and Stone walked, Hall walked, Kane walked we would be chastising Treliving for wasting assets on rentals when this team wasn’t ready to compete.

Lots of posters were up in arms over a 3rd round pick for Gustafson last year after he walked this offseason

You're using hindsight to tear apart the deals.

The Ducks traded him to Leafs cuz they offered a better pick, do you think if Flames offered a top 10 pick they would've taken a late first pick instead?

Hall - you're using pandemic as an excuse. He might've re-signed here, he might've really clicked with guys here. You'll never know cuz he didn't happen.

You have no idea how Anderson will work out for Habs. He might, he might not. It might turn out to be a great deal, it's not set in stone that its an awful deal.

Vegas has managed to add guys like Pietrangelo etc after adding Stone. Cap can be re-worked. But when you make stupid deals like Brouwer, Stone, Neal etc it does become impossible to make better moves. It shows.

You're using excuses like not having picks or not having cap space or not having prospects for not making some deals. Who's fault is that?

Of course he would be criticized if he paid big and acquired and of those and then let them walk, thats just terrible management. You would give him a pass for that?

These are just examples of whats been leaked, theres probably other examples of a GM who apparently is on everything/hardest working GM but rarely ever gets anything done unless he mortgaging the future by throwing away draft picks.

[Da_Chief]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

I can give you names also, maybe Crosby and Kucherov. Are they real options, doubtfully and what would I have to trade for them. Keenan97 has been bitching about the Flames doing nothing because his whipping boys, Monahan and Gaudreau haven't been traded for who he wants. There has not been one real proposal for either guy.

I'm really not sure what you're trying to say.

Crosby and Kucherov have never been in rumors. Stone/Hall etc were in rumors and got moved.

There has been talks of Gaudreau and Monahan being available from insiders but they're still here. Or some sort of a big shakeup involving the core. There's no doubt they've struggled last 2 playoffs but we're hoping the next time will be different?

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Da_Chief

You're using hindsight to tear apart the deals.

The Ducks traded him to Leafs cuz they offered a better pick, do you think if Flames offered a top 10 pick they would've taken a late first pick instead?

Hall - you're using pandemic as an excuse. He might've re-signed here, he might've really clicked with guys here. You'll never know cuz he didn't happen.

You have no idea how Anderson will work out for Habs. He might, he might not. It might turn out to be a great deal, it's not set in stone that its an awful deal.

Vegas has managed to add guys like Pietrangelo etc after adding Stone. Cap can be re-worked. But when you make stupid deals like Brouwer, Stone, Neal etc it does become impossible to make better moves. It shows.

You're using excuses like not having picks or not having cap space or not having prospects for not making some deals. Who's fault is that?

Of course he would be criticized if he paid big and acquired and of those and then let them walk, thats just terrible management. You would give him a pass for that?

These are just examples of whats been leaked, theres probably other examples of a GM who apparently is on everything/hardest working GM but rarely ever gets anything done unless he mortgaging the future by throwing away draft picks.

I absolutely think the Ducks would have taken the Tkachuk pick in return for Andersen. Are you saying that is something you wish they would have entertained? If not then what a pointless thing to write and if so you are out to lunch.

Flames were only making the Hall deal with an extension in place and that would have looked like a $9M per deal at the time the Yotes made the deal. Hall’s agent wanted him to go to market anyway so it didn’t seem like a possibility for the Flames. Trading Hanifin and Bennett for a guy who could have walked in the summer would have been far too risky.

You are right about Josh Andersen but imagine what that 7 year 5.5M thread would look like on this board. You would probably be ripping Treliving a new one if he made that move. Especially considering it was likely Monahan in that deal. Imagine trading Monahan for a guy who scored one goal last year and then signing that guy to a 7 year deal despite missing a year with injury.

You bring up Vegas and I will say that is likely a top 3 market for players I. The league where Calgary is hovering in the bottom 5-10. They also had the unique ability as an expansion team to have a clean cap sheet and leverage that into getting a ton of extra picks. Several of those picks were completely pissed away in deals for Tartar, and Pacioretty

The Flames made a mistake and traded their 2018 1st for Hamonic is it a mistake they didn’t save that pick to trade for Evandro Kane? I don’t buy that especially needing to sign Kane to a 7x7 deal.

I was on board with a huge trade this offseason but not for the sake of it. Obviously there hasn’t’t been a deal that make sense when talking about moving Monahan or Gaudreau.

Look at the 2019 Flames and the team that is about to hit the ice Thursday.

Gaudreau-Monahan-Lindholm
Tkachuk-Backlund-Frolik
Bennett-Jankowski-Neal
Mangipane-Ryan-Hathaway

Giordano-Brodie
Hanifin-Hamonic
Fattenberg-Andersson

Smith
Rittich

Now

Tkachuk-Lindholm-Dube
Gaudreau-Monahan-Mangipane
Bennett-Backlund-Leivo
Lucic-Ryan-Simon

Giordano-Andersson
Hanifin-Tanev
Valimaki-Nesterov

Markstrom
Rittich

8 different players which is more than 1/3 of the roster turned over in the course of 2 offseasons. You and others talk like it is the exact same team

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

8 different players which is more than 1/3 of the roster turned over in the course of 2 offseasons. You and others talk like it is the exact same team

But it is the exact same team, because if it was different, it would have won in the playoffs! Duh!

[pokerNhockey]

The "Tre is afraid to turn over significant pieces of his roster" narrative doesn't make sense to me. It may be because of proximity bias, but I would wager that Tre is one of the more active "big fish" gm's in the league, both in terms of actually pulling the trigger and being a serious bidder even when it doesn't work out. It takes 2, or in some cases 3 parties to like the deal to pull a trigger on a trade and other gm's don't back off if you call it.


For those complaining about all the picks he has traded, I have done a bit of a look back over Tre's tenure with the Flames. If you add up all of the trades involving draft picks under him you get:

1st: -2
2nd: -2
3rd: -2
4th: +1
5th: -1
6th: 0
7th: 0

Essentially he has traded 2 firsts, 2 seconds and 2 thirds for Hamilton, Harmonic, and 2 starting goalies. I would have thought it would have been more. Given he has been trying to exit a rebuild and become a contender over his 6 seasons, He has overall been pretty careful about trading away his picks on balance, and has gotten good value overall, thanks in large part to great trades of the few players who had value who he did trade away, such as Glencross.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by pokerNhockey

The "Tre is afraid to turn over significant pieces of his roster" narrative doesn't make sense to me. It may be because of proximity bias, but I would wager that Tre is one of the more active "big fish" gm's in the league, both in terms of actually pulling the trigger and being a serious bidder even when it doesn't work out. It takes 2, or in some cases 3 parties to like the deal to pull a trigger on a trade and other gm's don't back off if you call it.


For those complaining about all the picks he has traded, I have done a bit of a look back over Tre's tenure with the Flames. If you add up all of the trades involving draft picks under him you get:

1st: -2
2nd: -2
3rd: -2
4th: +1
5th: -1
6th: 0
7th: 0

Essentially he has traded 2 firsts, 2 seconds and 2 thirds for Hamilton, Harmonic, and 2 starting goalies. I would have thought it would have been more. Given he has been trying to exit a rebuild and become a contender over his 6 seasons, He has overall been pretty careful about trading away his picks on balance, and has gotten good value overall, thanks in large part to great trades of the few players who had value who he did trade away, such as Glencross.

A lot of people criticize Darryl Sutter for trading away picks, but the Flames were only ever missing one first round pick. He DID trade-down (as Treliving has), but only once did he not draft a 1st round pick, and that was to put the Flames 'over the top' with getting a 1st line centre (Jokinen).


I didn't hate the Hamonic trade when it came out, but it wasn't putting the Flames over the top. They were not bona fide contenders. Hamilton I thought represented good value at the time.


Sutter did trade away 2nd round picks, but I think he also acquired some in trade-downs as well, plus many of the returns were great value (like Rene Bourque).



Point I am trying to make is that I (and others) think that Treliving has spent a large number of draft picks over the years that - WITH HINDSIGHT - were negative moves, considering that this team has either failed to make the playoffs, or were bounced in the 1st round since their improbable 2nd round showing. I still think that there is a good argument to be made that Treliving has been a little bit impatient during this rebuild (and probably for a variety of reasons), but I don't think he 'screwed anything up' so far (though I do think the Hamonic trade was a set-back).

[pokerNhockey]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

A lot of people criticize Darryl Sutter for trading away picks, but the Flames were only ever missing one first round pick. He DID trade-down (as Treliving has), but only once did he not draft a 1st round pick, and that was to put the Flames 'over the top' with getting a 1st line centre (Jokinen).

That's a really good point about Sutter. I think Sutter actually made some great moves. What would have happened if Phaneuf wasn't playing on a broken foot against Chicago in 09? Does a deep run there change the story around Sutter as a GM?

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

I still think that there is a good argument to be made that Treliving has been a little bit impatient during this rebuild (and probably for a variety of reasons), but I don't think he 'screwed anything up' so far (though I do think the Hamonic trade was a set-back).

I agree, but even that was only with Hindsight. At the time of the trade Harmonic was coming off one bad season riddled with injuries and family concerns in his mid 20's. Prior to that he was holding his own on the Islander first line and thought of as a #3 on a great contract. It was a reasonable bet to think he would rebound in which case it would be remembered as a steal.


I think you have to judge a GM on the balance of his work, not whether individual bets on players pay off or not.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by pokerNhockey

Essentially he has traded 2 firsts, 2 seconds and 2 thirds for Hamilton, Harmonic, and 2 starting goalies. I would have thought it would have been more.

The only real bad trade he did was the Hamonic trade. Hamilton is easily worth what he traded and turned into Lindholm and Hanifin.

Treliving sucks at the UFA market though. Lots of bad there.

[pokerNhockey]

Originally Posted by Bonded

Treliving sucks at the UFA market though. Lots of bad there.

Treliving has had some high profile failures for sure. Hopefully Markstrom and Tanev are the start of a string of luck!

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Bonded

The only real bad trade he did was the Hamonic trade. Hamilton is easily worth what he traded and turned into Lindholm and Hanifin.

Treliving sucks at the UFA market though. Lots of bad there.

BAD:
- Brouwer
- Neal
- Raymond

GOOD:
- Ryan
- Engelland
- Frolik
- Markstrom

MARGINAL:
- Hiller
- Czarnik
- Tanev?

It's not great, but it is also not that bad, either. What did I miss? (You will notice I am counting only multi-year deals )

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

[Enoch Root]

a little early to be judging Tanev, no?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

a little early to be judging Tanev, no?

Yes. I think at this point that he could be great or much less great, which is why I have him on the third grouping. I should rather put him on his own as "too early to tell."

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

[Enoch Root]

Yeah, too early to tell, and marginal, are not the same

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Yeah, too early to tell, and marginal, are not the same

But... I added tbe question-mark... (?)

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

[Jeff Lebowski]

I thought the Raymond signing was good at the time. Team looked like offense would be a challenge so getting a guy who was close to 20 year prior on that deal was good. Monahan and Gaudreau emerge and the opportunity Raymond likely calculated didn't materialize. I think Hartley wanted him to play a different role. But the reasoning going in was solid imo.

Same thing happened to Glencross and Stajan. They all thought they were gonna be getting loads of offensive opportunities.

[Hackey]

The Neal signing and Hamonic deal are Tre's biggest blunders by far, but I was honestly excited when both of them happened. Probably just being an optimistic fan, but I did not see those turning out as poor as they did. Hamonic was fine as a player, but just never seemed to live up to expectation. The one consolation is that no players in that draft have really made an impact yet outside the top 10.

[djsFlames]

I see the problems have started before the games have even begun.

Ahhh, CP is back in full swing.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Hackey

The Neal signing and Hamonic deal are Tre's biggest blunders by far, but I was honestly excited when both of them happened. Probably just being an optimistic fan, but I did not see those turning out as poor as they did. Hamonic was fine as a player, but just never seemed to live up to expectation. The one consolation is that no players in that draft have really made an impact yet outside the top 10.

I agree 100%

When Hamonic was acquired he was billed as a top pairing D who was signed for 3 years at 3.8M and also was likely going to stay here long term. The thought of having 2 legit top pairs was exciting especially since it looked like the Oilers were going to become a problem. Obviously he and Brodie didn’t even look like a second pair let alone 1B.

Same with Neal. I felt the Flames needed 2 top 6 forwards going into the offseason. When Ferland was swapped with Lindholm I felt the team upgraded but still needed a legit goal scorer. When Neal was signed I was extremely excited to get a guy who played in the finals a couple straight years. I thought he would be hungry here and be a 30’goal threat for the first 2-3 years of the deal and the last couple might be a little rough.

Obviously the organization like my opinion was very wrong on both players.

[Snuffleupagus]

To Columbus:

Monahan, Hanifin +2nd

To Calgary:

Dubois, Savard

Who says no?