Israel declares war on Hamas

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Stewart made some great points, but his solution is doomed to fail. Those countries don't actually care, and probably prefer to have a Palestine that is run by Hamas striking out at Israel occasionally, and causing Israel to look really really bad. To me it seems like they would be pretty happy with the status quo.

Things are changing in the middle east quickly though. With the exception of Iran, most of the surrounding nations are modernizing and moving towards modern economies and more integration with the outside world.

Saudi Arabia, specifically, seems to have turned away from funding random militant groups. This likely has to do with them losing control of ISIS and also building a large megaproject (Neom) just over 200 miles from Israel. Their population is also aging with a rapidly falling fertility rate. Their society is no longer composed of large groups of young men chanting in the streets. At a certain point, the ongoing Israel conflict becomes bad for business for them.

Generally, with the exception of Qatar, the Arab world has pivoted away from funding militant groups, and, their bigger enemy, Iran, has filled that void. Saudi Arabia would love to get rid of Iran's influence in the region, just as much as Israel does.

Just prior to October 7, there was an imminent Saudi/Israel deal about to be announced. That deal almost certainly included a peace path for the Palestinians.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by blankall

Things are changing in the middle east quickly though. With the exception of Iran, most of the surrounding nations are modernizing and moving towards modern economies and more integration with the outside world.

Saudi Arabia, specifically, seems to have turned away from funding random militant groups. This likely has to do with them losing control of ISIS and also building a large megaproject (Neom) just over 200 miles from Israel. Their population is also aging with a rapidly falling fertility rate. Their society is no longer composed of large groups of young men chanting in the streets. At a certain point, the ongoing Israel conflict becomes bad for business for them.

Generally, with the exception of Qatar, the Arab world has pivoted away from funding militant groups, and, their bigger enemy, Iran, has filled that void. Saudi Arabia would love to get rid of Iran's influence in the region, just as much as Israel does.

Just prior to October 7, there was an imminent Saudi/Israel deal about to be announced. That deal almost certainly included a peace path for the Palestinians.

I hadn't heard that part of it, is that just speculation or is it backed up by anything? I'm just saying they seem to not be very concerned, and getting them to get together, and be concerned about it, and do something, which would ultimately put them at odds with the US and Israel, well, I'm skeptical. That, and getting a bunch of Sunni and #####e's to agree on anything seems dream worthy.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I hadn't heard that part of it, is that just speculation or is it backed up by anything? I'm just saying they seem to not be very concerned, and getting them to get together, and be concerned about it, and do something, which would ultimately put them at odds with the US and Israel, well, I'm skeptical. That, and getting a bunch of Sunni and #####e's to agree on anything seems dream worthy.

It's speculation, as no one (besides those directly involved) knows what the Israel/Saudi deal would have included. I have a hard time believing it would have been just the same normalization that the other Arab nations have offered, as Saudi Arabia is both geographically and emotionally closer to the Palestinian cause, and Saudi Arabia has a larger leadership role in the Arab world. How does SA host an Arab League summit, post Israel normalization, without addressing the issue?

This wouldn't involve getting Sunnis and Shi-ites to cooperate. Quite the opposite. Sunnis in Palestine and SA would be forming an alliance against Iran.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Looks like Hamas is now using starving Palestinians trying to get food from aid trucks as human shields as well.

[ResAlien]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Looks like Hamas is now using starving Palestinians trying to get food from aid trucks as human shields as well.

Are you referring to this “chaotic incident”?

https://twitter.com/user/status/1763187530474655880

Definitely sounds chaotic.

[Azure]

Who to believe.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1763276175948866041

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Azure

Who to believe.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1763276175948866041

The headlines are written to be purposely deceptive. IDF "opens fire" and then "104 people are killed". That headline fails to mention that the vast majority of the people killed were crushed by the aid trucks.

In the ensuing chaos, the lorries attempted to move forward. A Palestinian witness told the BBC that most of those who died were run over.

The Palestinian witness said the bulk of the casualties were caused by the lorries running people over, not by the Israeli gunfire.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68434443

So both are technically correct. One is written in a way that implies the IDF shot and killed 104 people, which is incorrect.

[Fuzz]

Well not Mario Nawfal, that's for sure.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Well not Mario Nawfal, that's for sure.

Lmao I can't believe someone would repost that grifter here.

People have so little media literacy jesus christ

[Bagor]

Lol. Who to believe?

IDF: We don't randomly murder Palestinian civilians. . Only in the face of risk or if they're exhibiting threatening behaviour. Like waving white flags at us.

They massacred over 100 people and we have sickos trying to defend it.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Lmao I can't believe someone would repost that grifter here.

People have so little media literacy jesus christ

It was just a link to an actual IDF video and IDF report.

Does it matter who said it?

But excuse me, next time I'll post a reputable source that wouldn't post misleading headlines. Who is your favourite? Hamas Press?

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by Azure

It was just a link to an actual IDF video and IDF report.

Does it matter who said it?

But excuse me, next time I'll post a reputable source that wouldn't post misleading headlines. Who is your favourite? Hamas Press?

Anyone that hasn't been nakedly exposed for stealing millions of dollars from people would be a good start

[TherapyforGlencross]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Lol. Who to believe?

IDF: We don't randomly murder Palestinian civilians. . Only in the face of risk or if they're exhibiting threatening behaviour. Like waving white flags at us.

They massacred over 100 people and we have sickos trying to defend it.

How are you so positive about the claim?

Crowds of waiting civilians descended on a convoy of lorries after it passed through an Israeli military checkpoint on the coastal road west of Gaza City.
Israel's military said troops fired at some people they thought were a threat.
In the ensuing chaos, the lorries attempted to move forward. A Palestinian witness told the BBC that most of those who died were run over

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68434443.amp

[Sliver]

I'll wait for Nage Waza or Beninho to come in and straighten this out, thank you very much. Those two are at least objective and have well thought out positions.

[Bagor]

^That's antisemitic.

[Bagor]

What do we know about the circumstances?
The Associated Press and AFP quoted witnesses saying that Israeli troops opened fire on a crowd of hungry Palestinians pulling boxes of flour and canned food off aid trucks, scattering the crowd. When the shooting stopped, he said the Gazans returned to the trucks and the soldiers opened fire again, wounding him his leg, which was subsequently run over by a vehicle. According to the local hospital management, most of the injuries were bullet wounds. A hospital worker said there were not enough ambulances for the casualties, and some were brought to hospital on donkey carts.

What do the Palestinians authorities say happened?
The Palestinians say that Israeli forces carried out a massacre, opening fire on a crowd of people who had gathered in the hope that food would be distributed.

What do the Israeli authorities say happened?
The Israeli version of events changed over the course of the day. The first account given by the Israeli military was that the victims had died in a stampede in which people had been “killed and injured from pushing, trampling and being run over by the trucks”. Later Israeli military officials briefed the Guardian and other news outlets to say that their forces had only opened fire on a crowd that threatened them after the aid convoy had moved on. Israeli officials also questioned the death toll from Palestinian authorities.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...toll-explainer

[Fuzz]

I'm not sure the detail matter so much this time. A bunch of starving desperate people were killed in Gaza. This isn't the first, and sure won't be the last.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Bagor

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...toll-explainer

This isn't correct either.

They are stating there were two separate incidents. The first occurred when people were trampled/ran over. Then some people ran at their checkpoint and the IDF opened fire:

One Israeli official said there had been two incidents, hundreds of metres apart. In the first, dozens were killed or injured as they tried to take aid from the trucks and were trampled or run over.

He said there was a second, subsequent incident as the trucks moved off. Some people in the crowd approached troops who felt under threat and opened fire, killing an unknown number in a "limited response", he said. He dismissed the casualty toll given by Gaza authorities but gave no figure himself.

So the story hasn't changed. The initial incident was always caused by some people approaching the checkpoint. There was a second incident too.

[PepsiFree]

It’s cool guys, we can’t really blame the IDF here because despite opening fire on a crowd of civilians 70m away, aid trucks ran over the bodies, so like… who is REALLY to blame here? Did they die from bullets or being run over after?

We’ll just never know, so the correct response is to defend the unbiased IDF like smart boys and girls do.

[ResAlien]

Classic case of look what you made me do. It was the trucks who were the culprits. If those people would chill out a second and wait patiently to starve to death they wouldn’t get run over by trucks.