Alberta Politics Thread

[CaptainCrunch]

I would in theory be ok with a carbon tax if the revenue was separate and audit-able and treated like a separate budget for Green incentives, I would also want the government to establish exactly how big the department is to track it and the overall costs.

But instead its going to go into general revenue and probably go towards their operating budget deficit and do very little in terms of environmental or carbon footprint reduction.

In otherword's yeah, this is going to be a unpredictable GST and the revenues are going to be pissed away for little effect.

The other thing that bugs me is that is its a badly thought of carbon tax that's not only going to make our local products uncompetitive against import products, but it in effect is going to punish people more that are struggling then anyone else.

Its typical socialist bs from the NDP who because they think that the government should control everything because they know better then anything else are not only going to try a hare brained wealth distribution system (The rebate) that's not going to help people all that much, but they're actively going to be picking winners and losers in the business environment which is something that they're going to fail at.

This whole thing has pissed me off enough that last night I actually joined the conservative party and I'm going to go to the debate on the 8th and vote for a leader that I trust on the 15th.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

You would think that a PST, while more predictable, would have a much greater impact on people and businesses as it would directly affect all purchases and services.

kinda like the Carbon tax, except that the PST is more predictable and can be applied more selectively.

When the feds moved away from the secretive MST which nobody knew how much was getting taxed to a predictable and open GST it just made things easier for businesses.

Plus consumers knew exactly and openly how much they were paying on purchases. There won't be a carbon tax line on receipts for consumer goods it will be a passed cost. I could also pinpoint exactly what goods weren't GST applicable.

The carbon tax is completely global in that everything that needs to be lit, heated, or driven is going to be taxed, and then passed on to the consumer.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

kinda like the Carbon tax, except that the PST is more predictable and can be applied more selectively.

When the feds moved away from the secretive MST which nobody knew how much was getting taxed to a predictable and open GST it just made things easier for businesses.

Plus consumers knew exactly and openly how much they were paying on purchases. There won't be a carbon tax line on receipts for consumer goods it will be a passed cost. I could also pinpoint exactly what goods weren't GST applicable.

The carbon tax is completely global in that everything that needs to be lit, heated, or driven is going to be taxed, and then passed on to the consumer.

The same would apply with a PST as far as passing on costs are concerned. And you know which goods are being directly taxed under the carbon tax. PST or carbon tax, no business is going to be telling you exactly how much they are indirectly raising their prices by for either.

Edit: you've been beating this drum for a while now, while I agree there will be some indirect increases, I think you should really take time to consider exactly how big of an impact it will actually be when you consider the breakdowns for most businesses. You had made the claim earlier that your phone and cable bills would be increasing because of this tax, explain how. My plans would only go up in the case of a PST being implemented, the carbon tax may have an effect on someone getting a brand new plan, but for someone on a defined service plan the carbon tax will have zero effect.

[llwhiteoutll]

A PST would be better though as it would apply to everyone. There should be no exemption to the carbon tax, unless it comes in the form of incentives to improve efficiency.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by llwhiteoutll

A PST would be better though as it would apply to everyone. There should be no exemption to the carbon tax, unless it comes in the form of incentives to improve efficiency.

Why and how would that be better? Especially for low income families and workers? Should they stop putting taxes on cigarettes too and just make it PST?

[puckedoff]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

You would think that a PST, while more predictable, would have a much greater impact on people and businesses as it would directly affect all purchases and services.

Yes, unlike the carbon tax which only impacts all purchases of goods and services.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by puckedoff

Yes, unlike the carbon tax which only impacts all purchases of goods and services.

Sorry the word "directly" should have been in there, oh wait it was. Knowing that now, which is harder on consumers, a tax which can pass on indirect increases on some purchases in addition to direct increases on select purchases. Or a tax which can pass on indirect increases on some purchases in addition to a direct increase on all purchases?

Edit: also the carbon tax will not have an impact on all goods and services, I've explained this a few posts above in a response to captain, so your statement is inaccurate

[puckedoff]

Think back to your econ 101, even a direct tax has an impact that is split between the producer and consumer.

The indirect increases in all goods and services is felt by either PST or carbon tax. You said above that it will not impact your cell/cable bill. Does Telus not have to heat its buildings? Put gas in the maintenance vehicles that set up cell towers? The only companies that will not see their costs increase by the carbon tax are those that operate and source entirely from overseas - all other businesses will be at a disadvantage to foreign competitors.

[stampsx2]

Originally Posted by puckedoff

Think back to your econ 101, even a direct tax has an impact that is split between the producer and consumer.

The indirect increases in all goods and services is felt by either PST or carbon tax. You said above that it will not impact your cell/cable bill. Does Telus not have to heat its buildings? Put gas in the maintenance vehicles that set up cell towers? The only companies that will not see their costs increase by the carbon tax are those that operate and source entirely from overseas - all other businesses will be at a disadvantage to foreign competitors.

And if you understand this you're more qualified to run the province than anybody in the ndp.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by GGG

People are over reacting to this with the whole no one will be able to afford heat or vegetables. It's essentially adding the PST. This tax increase isn't really that special compared to others

I don't agree with you here on one significant point. A PST wouldn't apply on certain necessary goods (food being a major one). People are generally spending their discretionary funds and paying PST on those purchases. The carbon tax doesn't factor that in at all.

We know that between the agricultural use, and shipping/transport our food costs will rise here in Alberta. Then you have home heating. That's a big difference from the GST and HST in other provinces.

I would have been in favor of the PST because it's transparent and in my eyes a much fairer tax.

[stampsx2]

double post

[stampsx2]

Consumers won't notice carbon tax in price of consumer goods, Notley says
'Perhaps it won't trickle down at all' to consumer goods, premier says of new levy

article:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...says-1.3896298



President Carl Rosenau has a pretty good idea of the additional fuel expenses tied to the levy — about $600,000 next year — but the business also operates more than one million square feet of warehouse space that requires power and heat.

“We are just going to pass it on,” says Rosenau, past chairman of the Alberta Motor Transport Association.

“I can’t absorb that, and so it’s going to affect the price of your lettuce to your bread to everything that consumers purchase, because all carriers are doing it.”

article:
http://calgaryherald.com/business/lo...rbon-tax-nears

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

The same would apply with a PST as far as passing on costs are concerned. And you know which goods are being directly taxed under the carbon tax. PST or carbon tax, no business is going to be telling you exactly how much they are indirectly raising their prices by for either.

Edit: you've been beating this drum for a while now, while I agree there will be some indirect increases, I think you should really take time to consider exactly how big of an impact it will actually be when you consider the breakdowns for most businesses. You had made the claim earlier that your phone and cable bills would be increasing because of this tax, explain how. My plans would only go up in the case of a PST being implemented, the carbon tax may have an effect on someone getting a brand new plan, but for someone on a defined service plan the carbon tax will have zero effect.

Every business that has to use electricity or fuel or anything carbon related is going to see a cost increase. So yes your cell bill will go up. The rates won't but there will be a service charge applied to your bill. or at best the next time you go to sign up your rate will jump.

This is what you're not understanding a carbon tax is a fundamental tax in that it will fundamentally increase everything, so yes a Safeways will see their costs increase, as will the local food producers and the transport companies as will all the companies that provide services to Safeways, such as the companies that provide them with for example mats, or the security company that picks up their receipts. Its a non selective tax, its basically the nuclear bomb of taxes.

With a PST it can be applied selectively. So for example with the PST argricultural products can be made to be exempt to mirror the GST. Or any kind of toll can be made to be exempt.

You can't do that with a carbon tax because the minute that you apply exemptions on one product your going to have to provide an exemption to other products, plus administering it would be a nightmare.

I truly don't think that you have a fundamental understanding of how wide spread this tax is, or your drinking the NDP soothing words and koolaid (Which will be carbon taxed at the production and transportation and retail level as well ). The NDP and Rachel Notley are selling an enormous line of BS and that's why they refused to release the report on the economic ramifications of this carbon tax.

Oh wait though Kool aid is manufactured and imported, so won't be able to afford a local competitor making their own koolaid because local businesses competing against imports are going to take it right up the pooper.



Since the NDP ran without a carbon tax in their platform and Notley is so delusional that she believes that Alberta is ok with it, then the best thing to do to show that she has a sliver of integrity is to desolve the government, call a general election and fight for this Carbon tax as a primary platform piece.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by puckedoff

Think back to your econ 101, even a direct tax has an impact that is split between the producer and consumer.

The indirect increases in all goods and services is felt by either PST or carbon tax. You said above that it will not impact your cell/cable bill. Does Telus not have to heat its buildings? Put gas in the maintenance vehicles that set up cell towers? The only companies that will not see their costs increase by the carbon tax are those that operate and source entirely from overseas - all other businesses will be at a disadvantage to foreign competitors.

My cell and cable plans are defined, my cell plan for example has been the same price for 5 years, I've never changed the plan because cell companies continually increase their costs for things(even without a carbon tax, imagine that), to get all the same features of my plan on a new plan would cost me about $30 more per month, they can't change the price unless I choose to change plans, they know this which is why they constantly call me trying to get me to switch plans. So while bell will incur some extra costs due to the carbon tax, it will not be passed on to me unless I change my plan. Now if a PST was introduced, both myself and bell would need to pay more, but they still would not be able to pass off their increased expense on to me unless I change my plan.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

My cell and cable plans are defined, my cell plan for example has been the same price for 5 years, I've never changed the plan because cell companies continually increase their costs for things(even without a carbon tax, imagine that), to get all the same features of my plan on a new plan would cost me about $30 more per month, they can't change the price unless I choose to change plans, they know this which is why they constantly call me trying to get me to switch plans. So while bell will incur some extra costs due to the carbon tax, it will not be passed on to me unless I change my plan. Now if a PST was introduced, both myself and bell would need to pay more, but they still would not be able to pass off their increased expense on to me unless I change my plan.

They haven't had a carbon tax have they? When does your contract expire. Because I will bet you a $50.00 donation to a charity of your choice that when you go into to renegotiate your rate with Bell it will be included in your service charges and there will be an increase.

Your applying a former model to a model that includes a new tax and Bell isn't a charitable donation nor is Telus or anyone else, that cost will be passed on in new rates.

[Dion]

Like reshuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic, this government is broken and there are not enough lifeboats.

[Fuzz]

I don't agree with a carbon tax, but I really wish we had just copied the BC plan so businesses could look at the data there and know exactly how it would affect them here. It would be mostly predictable, even if it wasn't wanted. Instead we have the guessing 'Perhaps it won't trickle down at all' to consumer goods, instead of, you know, knowing.

[The Fonz]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

It would be mostly predictable, even if it wasn't wanted. Instead we have the guessing 'Perhaps it won't trickle down at all' to consumer goods, instead of, you know, knowing.

With the exception of iggy_oi, I think we all know that it will indeed trickle down.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by The Fonz

With the exception of iggy_oi, I think we all know that it will indeed trickle down.

Well, without getting too in depth unless there is a black-hole of Economic tendencies or all of the businesses this is going to affect just decide one day that they can keep conducting business and take the carbon tax in the teeth then it pretty much has to.

If Government is legislating this and businesses arent going to just swallow the damage rather than pass the cost on, then using my keen powers of deduction and Occam's Razor theres only one group left and one way this is going to end.

And now we get right back to the initial crux of the matter which is, nobody, not even the people who built, drafted and are enacting it, can tell anyone what the damage is going to be. Or the benefit for that matter.

[stampsx2]