Yea you're right, Russians would probably replace with the Lider-class which would probably cost $1.2B each.
The Lider has been off and on the design board for a while. Originally a nuclear powered destroyer in name only, they cancelled it, then it came back on board with a gas turbine variant that was cancelled. Then the nuclear powered stealth version was bought back with an idea of the first one being commissioned at the end of the decade. But with the state of the Russian economy its unlikely that it see's the light of day.
There have been videos of the Moskva burning in the distance, if these are real video's it looks like a complete loss.
The loss of Moskva is devestating. They really have only three command vessels left. The two sisters of the Moskva command the Northern and Pacific Fleet. There is one Kirov in current service in the Northern Fleet. The other one Nakimov (sp?) is undergoing a refit that won't be complete til next year. The Kuznetsov, the last Russian conventionally powered Aircraft Carrier could take on a fleet command role but its in refit til next year, but is nearing end of life.
Right now the Black Sea Fleet doesn't have a ship that can really be a command and control hub. The fleet has 5 frigates, 1 missile carrying corvette, 6 improved Kilo diesel attack boats, maybe 2 out of 7 of their landing ships remain active as the others have been damaged or destroyed. There are a bunch of small auxillary boats guided missile corvettes and missile boats. But the loss of the Moskva is a big problem.
Like I said, troops can be lost, tanks can be lost. But the loss of a major naval asset like the Moskva is a huge blow to moral, as ships like this tend to be national symbols.
Imagine if the American's lost the Mt Whitney, or the Blue Ridge. even the loss of an Aegis cruiser would probably be a national tragedy.
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My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
The Lider has been off and on the design board for a while. Originally a nuclear powered destroyer in name only, they cancelled it, then it came back on board with a gas turbine variant that was cancelled. Then the nuclear powered stealth version was bought back with an idea of the first one being commissioned at the end of the decade. But with the state of the Russian economy its unlikely that it see's the light of day.
There have been videos of the Moskva burning in the distance, if these are real video's it looks like a complete loss.
The loss of Moskva is devestating. They really have only three command vessels left. The two sisters of the Moskva command the Northern and Pacific Fleet. There is one Kirov in current service in the Northern Fleet. The other one Nakimov (sp?) is undergoing a refit that won't be complete til next year. The Kuznetsov, the last Russian conventionally powered Aircraft Carrier could take on a fleet command role but its in refit til next year, but is nearing end of life.
Right now the Black Sea Fleet doesn't have a ship that can really be a command and control hub. The fleet has 5 frigates, 1 missile carrying corvette, 6 improved Kilo diesel attack boats, maybe 2 out of 7 of their landing ships remain active as the others have been damaged or destroyed. There are a bunch of small auxillary boats guided missile corvettes and missile boats. But the loss of the Moskva is a big problem.
Like I said, troops can be lost, tanks can be lost. But the loss of a major naval asset like the Moskva is a huge blow to moral, as ships like this tend to be national symbols.
Imagine if the American's lost the Mt Whitney, or the Blue Ridge. even the loss of an Aegis cruiser would probably be a national tragedy.
Honest question: does a fleet require a command ship, as long as battles are near own lands? Can't commander command from some commanders hub on the land nearby?
Honest question: does a fleet require a command ship, as long as battles are near own lands? Can't commander command from some commanders hub on the land nearby?
fleets tend to have systems of mutually supporting radar and anti aircraft control, also major super powers in theory dont lose assets to pissant little countries, starts to make the major power look like just another pissant little country
Couldn't find a source I could read to confirm this myself, but apparently back in 2019 there was a corruption scandal, with charges pressed and people fired, as 70% of the money intended to improve/modernize air defenses of the Russian Navy since 2012 had been stolen by the people in charge of the modernization.
Couldn't find a source I could read to confirm this myself, but apparently back in 2019 there was a corruption scandal, with charges pressed and people fired, as 70% of the money intended to improve/modernize air defenses of the Russian Navy since 2012 had been stolen by the people in charge of the modernization.
Incompetence and corruption. What a combination.
Here. It was Northern fleet though, not Black Sea fleet.
Poland government is officially accusing Russia and its agents of setting a bomb in 2010 leading to the plane crash that killed then Polish President Lech Kaczynski and his entire staff returning from a state visit to Russia. One has to wonder how long they've been sitting on this info.
Quote:
A Polish special commission created to investigate the death of former President Lech Kaczynski, who died in 2010 after a mysterious plane crash, has blamed Russia for sabotaging the flight as part of an assassination plot.
The latest commission report, which was released on Monday, claimed that Russian operatives planted explosives aboard the Tupolev Tu-154M plane, leading it to crash on April 10, 2010, outside the Russian city of Smolensk. The plane crash claimed the lives of ninety-six people, including Kaczynski, his wife, and a number of other senior government officials and military leaders.
Antoni Macierewicz, who served as Poland’s defense minister from 2015 until his appointment to lead the commission in 2018, claimed that the crash was an “act of unlawful interference by the Russian side,” according to the Associated Press.
“The main and indisputable proof of the interference was an explosion in the left wing … followed by an explosion in the plane’s center,” Macierewicz said. He denied that the poor weather conditions on the morning of April 10 had played a role in the incident, noting the good condition of the plane and the experience of both pilots. Earlier investigations in Poland and Russia had concluded that human errors caused by dense fog, as well as a lack of modern radar equipment aboard the Tu-154M, had resulted in the crash.
The accusations in Monday’s report are not the first time that Poland has accused Russia of involvement in the plane crash. Polish nationalist politicians have long argued that the Kremlin, which opposed Kaczynski’s conservative government, had sought to assassinate him, and many have highlighted Russia’s refusal to return the plane for inspection as evidence. These themes have been echoed by Poland’s deputy prime minister, Jaroslaw Kaczynski, Lech’s twin brother, who leads the governing “Law and Justice” (PiS) party that the two brothers co-founded in 2001.
The Lider has been off and on the design board for a while. Originally a nuclear powered destroyer in name only, they cancelled it, then it came back on board with a gas turbine variant that was cancelled. Then the nuclear powered stealth version was bought back with an idea of the first one being commissioned at the end of the decade. But with the state of the Russian economy its unlikely that it see's the light of day.
Yea Russia's not going to have money for them, but when/if they do it'll be the Lider class or something new they go with, not a rebuilt Slava.
With any luck Kuznetsov will have another fire or their dry dock will spontaneously combust again. It should be an official status of their naval ships since it happens so often.
Russian media also report "serious damage", but don't say it has sunk.
The US is saying the same:
Quote:
Pentagon spokesperson John Kirby on Thursday said the flagship of Russia’s Black Sea fleet was still afloat and “operating under her own power” after an explosion aboard the vessel — which Ukraine said was the result of a missile strike and Russia said was caused by an internal fire detonating ammunition.
Kirby was unable to verify either country’s claim about the Soviet-era guided-missile cruiser Moskva, which he said is one of three cruisers in the Russian fleet and was operating roughly 60 miles south of Odesa — a Black Sea port city in southern Ukraine — at the time of the blast.
“We know she suffered an explosion,” Kirby said in an interview on MSNBC. “It looks like — from the images that we have been able to look at — it looks like it was a pretty sizable explosion, too. We don’t know what caused that explosion.”
The warship is now heading further east, Kirby added, and U.S. officials assess it will likely dock at Sevastopol — a Black Sea port city in Crimea, the disputed peninsula south of Ukraine that Russia seized and annexed in 2014.
Honest question: does a fleet require a command ship, as long as battles are near own lands? Can't commander command from some commanders hub on the land nearby?
Ok, I'm a little behind on my fleet tech. But yes ideally you want to have that command and control ship within your fleet, with ideally a Flag plot that allows you to coordinate things. You can do it from land absolutely and usually overall fleet coordination between multiple fleets happen from land and the command ships act almost like a network hub for their fleet assets to send an overall picture up the ladder.
IIRC in the Canadian Navy we used the Iroquis Destroyers as command ships for building fleets. When we lost those ships it became difficult for a fleet commander to coordinate things on the fly instantly which is what is needed.
The American's have I think two dedicated Command and control ships which I talked about. But in most American fleets for example Carrier Battlegroups. the Command ship which could be a carrier or modified cruiser has a Flag Plot, which is like a ships CIC except it can see and coordinate every asset in its command. Its needed for a Flag officer to see everything and react quickly.
Currently the Black Sea Fleet has lost that ability to quickly coordinate. I would assume that fleet command will be moved back to the Black Sea Fleet ground head quarters, but that creates some communication lag, and some situational awareness can be lost.
It'll be interesting to see where the Fleet Commander transfered his flag to. I would almost expect a change of command ceremony, as losing a flagship isn't going to look good on the resume. Frankly the Moskva has a pretty sophisticated air defense system, the way to kill it is to either fire something stealthy or something below the radar line. But most advanced search radars are built to detect sea skimmers. The usual doctrine is to either overwhelm a ships defensive circles of defense with a lot of missiles. Or something extremely fast and stealthy.
I mean looking at the Neptune there's not much available in terms of capability. But its a subsonic missile, its a limited range missile (300 km). Suppossedly reading the stories, two were fired at the Moskva. So this is a failure of Russian technology (likely) or a poorly trained crew that was asleep at their post.
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My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Its funny that they talk about a Soviet Era ship. And yeah it is, but it just came out of an extensive refit and modernization program I think last year or the year before. That included updates to its sensors and data sharing.
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My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Yea Russia's not going to have money for them, but when/if they do it'll be the Lider class or something new they go with, not a rebuilt Slava.
With any luck Kuznetsov will have another fire or their dry dock will spontaneously combust again. It should be an official status of their naval ships since it happens so often.
Originally I think the Kuznetsov was due to retire in I think 2025. Its a pretty antiquated hull. given what the Chinese, the British (Queen Elizabeth), and especially the American's are putting out.
With the current economic situation and the Russian Navy really not being a power projection fleet but more of a frigate coastal defense navy. I doubt that Kuznetsov does another tour.
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My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Its funny that they talk about a Soviet Era ship. And yeah it is, but it just came out of an extensive refit and modernization program I think last year or the year before. That included updates to its sensors and data sharing.
The Nimitz is also a Soviet era ship...
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Captain James P. DeCOSTE, CD, 18 Sep 1993
Poland government is officially accusing Russia and its agents of setting a bomb in 2010 leading to the plane crash that killed then Polish President Lech Kaczynski and his entire staff returning from a state visit to Russia. One has to wonder how long they've been sitting on this info.
