Ongoing General Automotive Thread 2.0

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by zamler

I've never purchased a full sized truck why are they money pits? Or you mean they are unstable and crash easily?

New light duty trucks? Like the YYC suburban staple?

Poor axle weight dist, high centre of gravity, married with above average tq/hp, as a result easily lose their rear ends, comparatively.

They aren’t money pits if they are used for their utilitarian purpose. Hauling, towing etc.

Snowy, icey, inclement weather is not one of them comparatively. Ferrying the family to ski resorts in them, is tragically myopic.

I invite light duty truck owners, to contest this. Which vehicle has worse traction, at a premium price point?

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

New light duty trucks? Like the YYC suburban staple?

Poor axle weight dist, high centre of gravity, married with above average tq/hp, as a result easily lose their rear ends, comparatively.

They aren’t money pits if they are used for their utilitarian purpose. Hauling, towing etc.

Snowy, icey, inclement weather is not one of them comparatively. Ferrying the family to ski resorts in them, is tragically myopic.

I invite light duty truck owners, to contest this. Which vehicle has worse traction, at a premium price point?

You're completely right about them being awful in the snow/ice.

Hats off to PepsiFree and his studded tires in his. That's the only way I'd be comfortable in a pick-up versus basically any FWD or AWD car or SUV.

That light rear end on a truck makes them fking terrible in the winter. I leave mine parked as much as possible in icy conditions.

[cam_wmh]

I have studded Hakka 10’s on my R. That’s not noble. It’s basic wisdom. People who travel often in snowy/icey weather, yet go cheap on winters on their >$50k vehicles, are some of the dumbest around.

[Fuzz]

Ya, I'm with Sliver, I take my wife's car and leave the truck behind if it is slippery.


Though it is hella fun to play around with in the fresh pow.

[cam_wmh]

Take it to ghost and lose your rear end then.

Don’t be one of the thousands of idiots, that are bottle necking mountain highways, when both a bit of accumulation and a curve in the road approaches, in their $100k, quad cab.

Tragically, that is blatant wishful thinking.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

I have studded Hakka 10’s on my R. That’s not noble. It’s basic wisdom. People who travel often in snowy/icey weather, yet go cheap on winters on their >$50k vehicles, are some of the dumbest around.

I've never had studded tires. Never been in a car with them. Next set I need I'll get 'em.

I wasn't saying it's noble, though. Just that in a truck with a light ass end that would give me enough confidence to think a 4x4 truck was reasonable.

I think studded tires are super uncommon...wasn't even really on my radar ever and I don't know anybody IRL with them.

[cam_wmh]

Really, light duty trucks and heavier shouldn’t be allowed in the left lanes of highways from October to March.

[chedder]

If the road is so bad that the rear end of a modern truck, with all of the anti-skid/sway etc, is going squirrelly you're going to put it in 4wd. Good winter tires, 4wd and a bit of weight in the back and they're pretty sure footed. My Ford is anyway.

Modern quad cab trucks are essentially suv's with boxes. Pretty reasonable vehicle for taking 5 people and all of their stuff to the ski Hill.

[bagofpucks]

My only slight counter-arguments would be that modern quad cabs really aren’t as light in the back end as the trucks of yesteryear and the one time I will take our truck instead of the van is if I’m unsure if the roads have been plowed. I have an older single cab work truck, and yah, it can be a little sketchy on ice with how light the rear end is, but I don’t have the same issue in my newer quad cab. The extra clearance is a big help on back roads or residential roads that have big ruts. But, I also live out in the country, so a truck makes sense for a lot of different reasons.

However, I do think way too many truck owners cheap out on tires because they think they can go anywhere with 4WD. And of course, many truck owners drive like idiots at all times of the year.

I still say our AWD Sienna is the near perfect winter driver. Only thing I would change is have a couple more inches of clearance, but other than that it is fantastic.

[81MC]

4wd compromises traction in the instances when people think they need it most - driving down the highway. Locking the axles together helps get you going if you’re on a slippery surface, but does not help keep you there once you’re going, rather the opposite.

The same people who think 4x4 justifies not needing proper tires are the same people who think their opinions are informed.

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by bagofpucks

My only slight counter-arguments would be that modern quad cabs really aren’t as light in the back end as the trucks of yesteryear and the one time I will take our truck instead of the van is if I’m unsure if the roads have been plowed. I have an older single cab work truck, and yah, it can be a little sketchy on ice with how light the rear end is, but I don’t have the same issue in my newer quad cab. The extra clearance is a big help on back roads or residential roads that have big ruts. But, I also live out in the country, so a truck makes sense for a lot of different reasons.

However, I do think way too many truck owners cheap out on tires because they think they can go anywhere with 4WD. And of course, many truck owners drive like idiots at all times of the year.

I still say our AWD Sienna is the near perfect winter driver. Only thing I would change is have a couple more inches of clearance, but other than that it is fantastic.

Where are you learning axle weight distribution has improved?
And why does it matter if they’re plowed? New snow is always malleable. (Granted, dated snowfall with ruts does require higher ground clearance. Fortunately, I’ve made hundreds of mountain commutes where that has yet to occur…. Suburban cul-de-sacs are another conversation tho ha)

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by 81MC

4wd compromises traction in the instances when people think they need it most - driving down the highway. Locking the axles together helps get you going if you’re on a slippery surface, but does not help keep you there once you’re going, rather the opposite.

The same people who think 4x4 justifies not needing proper tires are the same people who think their opinions are informed.

Yup. And always the same people who conveniently ignore the most important thing, stopping distance.

[bagofpucks]

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

Where are you learning axle weight distribution has improved?
And why does it matter if they’re plowed? New snow is always malleable. (Granted, dated snowfall with ruts does require higher ground clearance. Fortunately, I’ve made hundreds of mountain commutes where that has yet to occur…. Suburban cul-de-sacs are another conversation tho ha)

I can’t seem to the specs for both vehicles, but I think logically it’s safe to say that a single cab vs a quad cab will have a different axle weight distribution?

Also, a fair amount of my driving is on secondary highways or back roads leading to long driveways. If a road is plowed it’s much easier to tell where the potential ruts and old snowfall may be.

[zamler]

I used to drive a 2WD Toyota truck, weight on the rear axle had to be about 2 pounds. I never crashed, never spun out. But it was far from ideal in retrospect that was a stupid vehicle to drive in winter.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by zamler

I used to drive a 2WD Toyota truck, weight on the rear axle had to be about 2 pounds. I never crashed, never spun out. But it was far from ideal in retrospect that was a stupid vehicle to drive in winter.

Meh, everything used to be different. I can't imagine throwing my 16-year-old in a Chevette with a couple sandbags in the back on all seasons, hah. We definitely had to drive different back then with the different vehicle and tire tech.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by bagofpucks

I can’t seem to the specs for both vehicles, but I think logically it’s safe to say that a single cab vs a quad cab will have a different axle weight distribution?

They will depending on regular cab vs extended cab vs crew cab, as will short box vs regular box vs long box for a given model, where available (which is why you don't usually see these numbers published; too many variables).

You're still looking at roughly a 56% front / 44% rear weight distribution for a modern crew cab regular box. It's not great.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Meh, everything used to be different. I can't imagine throwing my 16-year-old in a Chevette with a couple sandbags in the back on all seasons, hah. We definitely had to drive different back then with the different vehicle and tire tech.

Confession: I had all season tires. I drove through Jasper in winter.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I've never had studded tires. Never been in a car with them. Next set I need I'll get 'em.

I wasn't saying it's noble, though. Just that in a truck with a light ass end that would give me enough confidence to think a 4x4 truck was reasonable.

I think studded tires are super uncommon...wasn't even really on my radar ever and I don't know anybody IRL with them.

I've had both studded and non-studded winters, and IMO they're not worth it. The few days a year where the studs would actually make a difference aren't worth the extra road noise and poor handling on dry pavement the rest of the time. They might make more sense in Edmonton or Winnipeg where they don't get the thaw cycles that we do

[Fuzz]

Ya, they were great in Canmore/Banff and most highway driving was 90kmh/h for us so they lasted a long time. In Calgary though? probably more of a fun thing, though I do wish I had got them on my 2wd truck, just to avoid spinning tires on my street glacier that seems to hang around into May.

[Ironhorse]

Any recommendations /personal experiences with a driving school for new teenage drivers? Probably better if my kid learns from someone other than me, and I'll lose less hair.