The 2016 US American Election Thread

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by wittynickname

But sure, sure, Hillary's emails are just as bad.

That's a false equivalence that I never made.

Originally Posted by ernie

also on the e-mails....it's not a story. Investigation was done. It's over. Stupid things were done without intent. Intent matters.

Would you agree that if there was intent, it is a story?

[GirlySports]

The debate tomorrow will be interesting. People might end up being more scared of Pence then Trump.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Tomorrow's debate will be 90 minutes of Kaine saying "Hillary is not that bad" and Pence spending 90 minutes saying "What Mr. Trump really means is...". I expect it to easily be the most boring VP debate since Edwards/Cheney, which I don't even remember a second of.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

The debate tomorrow will be interesting. People might end up being more scared of Pence then Trump.

Pence was a baffling pick for VP. It gives the 'establishment GOP' a direct channel to control the Presidency,* and it undercuts Trump's fundamental appeal.

Trump's fundamental appeal is straight-talking, no-nonsense tough guy enacting total Government overhaul. A ticket with guys like Christie and Gingrich would make much more sense to further that agenda. Politically the Pence pick is certainly understandable, but it reflects the ego and incoherence of the candidate.

*that channel being an impeachment of the POTUS on day 2 of his Presidency. Any pretext can be found, blown out of proportion (if need be), and suddenly a bipartisan consensus that Trump shouldn't be President results in a Pence/Cruz theocracy - which I actually fear much more.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by GGG

One thing that should be concerning is that outside of LGBT issues Bush and Clinton share very similar policies. Both hawkish on foreign policy and Bush through misguided effort was very focused on addressing issues in education.

Both are/were also interested in helping third world countries.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Tomorrow's debate will be 90 minutes of Kaine saying "Hillary is not that bad" and Pence spending 90 minutes saying "What Mr. Trump really means is...". I expect it to easily be the most boring VP debate since Edwards/Cheney, which I don't even remember a second of.

Cheney was easily the most influential VP in a long time and not in a good way. Scary that he slipped under radar in that election.

[ernie]

Originally Posted by Gozer

Would you agree that if there was intent, it is a story?

Actual intent to handle confidential and top secret information such that it would be leaked? Because that is the intent that is necessary. Not intent to use a personal server not even intent to cover up a careless mistake in making such a personal server decision(and that isn't even clear). Actual intent to put such information in the wrong hands.

And that is missing. It's not a story. And I can guarantee that you could pretty much find similar things with anyone in Washington. People are stupid. Note that using a personal server is NOT the same as collecting documents and data for personal use. When people talk about there being a have and have not system when it comes to these things they like to point out Private John Doe only doing this little thing is facing prison because of it. But these things boil down to a couple things (usually) (1) taking the documents for personal use outside their job and/or (2) intending to or indeed leaking the information. That isn't present in this case.

Anyways I'm done with that.

Interesting that both Giuliani and Trump are alluding to Hillary not being faithful to Bill this weekend. It's clearly a campaign operative for the next week or two. Also, Trump pushing the "watch the voting" crap is scary. Also telling that they still have to have Giuliani as one of their main surrogates. He's a whack job.

[Senator Clay Davis]

So we've reached this stage of the proceedings....

[photon]

I don't even think it's a case of people being stupid, I've seen it many times in big companies where IT creates policies and rules and implements solutions to protect their data, but they're focused on their perspective, not on making it simple or easy.

So Joe in Accounting or Steve who's on the road all the time or Alice who wins $10M deals but can't program her VCR all are focused on doing their jobs and aren't given the time or resources to jump through all the hoops IT makes. Instead they do whatever they can to get what they need when they need it, which often times involves subverting or circumventing the hoops.

Almost every Fortune 500 company has been hacked. I think less because people are stupid and more because security and productivity are often mutually exclusive, especially if the people implementing the security don't take people into account in designing their solution.

[ernie]

Originally Posted by photon

I don't even think it's a case of people being stupid, I've seen it many times in big companies where IT creates policies and rules and implements solutions to protect their data, but they're focused on their perspective, not on making it simple or easy.....

Agreed.

Couple that with people just not being smart about these things to being with and pile on complicated procedures and you have a recipe for a mess.

And I know this very well. We are in an export controlled business AND I'm in R&D. IP, trade secrets, export controlled documents etc etc etc. You handle these things in different ways. It's confusing.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Well I gotta say the GOP gets full marks for being 100% honest here (or 100% ignorant I guess), even if being honest is admitting they're racist. This is the Chief Strategist and Comm Director for the GOP...

Sean SpicerVerified account
‏@seanspicer
Exclusive: Republicans Launch Willie Horton-Style Attack on @timKaine https://shar.es/1x9hQw via @RollCall

https://twitter.com/seanspicer/statu...62623222603776

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by ernie

Actual intent to handle confidential and top secret information such that it would be leaked? Because that is the intent that is necessary.
. Actual intent to put such information in the wrong hands.

So anything short of treason is irrelevant?

Talk about damning with faint praise.

[ernie]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Well I gotta say the GOP gets full marks for being 100% honest here (or 100% ignorant I guess), even if being honest is admitting they're racist. This is the Chief Strategist and Comm Director for the GOP...



https://twitter.com/seanspicer/statu...62623222603776

Being hell bent on delivering death penalties, gerrymandering districts, changing voter registration laws and logistics, who should use what bathroom, who gets to marry etc etc are real good ways to never get back the minority vote and to lose the independents.

Seems like the GOP is spending an awful lot of time trying to convince their own base to vote for them.

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by Gozer

So anything short of treason is irrelevant?

Talk about damning with faint praise.

You've plead your case man. Might be time to focus on other obsessions.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by photon

I don't even think it's a case of people being stupid, I've seen it many times in big companies where IT creates policies and rules and implements solutions to protect their data, but they're focused on their perspective, not on making it simple or easy.

So Joe in Accounting or Steve who's on the road all the time or Alice who wins $10M deals but can't program her VCR all are focused on doing their jobs and aren't given the time or resources to jump through all the hoops IT makes. Instead they do whatever they can to get what they need when they need it, which often times involves subverting or circumventing the hoops.

That's not a fair representation of the facts.

[ernie]

Originally Posted by Gozer

So anything short of treason is irrelevant?

Talk about damning with faint praise.

I'm not supporting what she's done. She wouldn't have been my candidate for the democratic party. Several others would have been a lot better. But it's not a story anymore. It's been investigated every which way by the FBI and others and she wasn't charged with anything. So unless you want to pretend you know better than those people or pretend the Clintons pay everyone off (i.e. conspiracy level stuff) then it's no longer a conversation worth having. It's like Benghazi how many more committees and reports have to say there isn't anything there before people stop trying to link Hillary directly to it? Everyone wants to paint things as black and white but when it comes to governing and international relations it isn't. And it takes a heck of a person to wade through the waters she has.

Through it all the fact remains that she is perhaps the most qualified candidate to ever run for president. She has ample domestic and international experience. Despite the smear jobs she holds TREMENDOUS sway and respect around the world. She hasn't paid off thousands (and more) of people to say nice things about her. They say nice things about her because she has done a lot of good in her private and public life.

And on the other side you have the least qualified guy ever. The fact that after a a poor debate that demonstrated his weaknesses so well he spent all week doubling and tripling down on these things is frightening. It shouldn't even be a race. This should be a blowout of monumental proportions. Trump is a child. And now him and Giuliani are stoking the Clinton is a cheater too stuff and well Giuliani basically saying Trump would be a better president because he's not a woman.

I also don't really take the other two parties seriously as they don't even really have full platforms.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Gozer

That's not a fair representation of the facts.

Good thing I wasn't trying to make a "representation of the facts"...

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by ernie

I'm not supporting what she's done. She wouldn't have been my candidate for the democratic party. Several others would have been a lot better. But it's not a story anymore. It's been investigated every which way by the FBI and others and she wasn't charged with anything. So unless you want to pretend you know better than those people or pretend the Clintons pay everyone off (i.e. conspiracy level stuff) then it's no longer a conversation worth having. It's like Benghazi how many more committees and reports have to say there isn't anything there before people stop trying to link Hillary directly to it? Everyone wants to paint things as black and white but when it comes to governing and international relations it isn't.

The FBI had one, narrowly focused investigation that included 5 immunity deals, that determined a Cabinet level official would not be prosecuted during an election (the latter two facts are factors in that decision).

I totally respect the opinion of 'inconsequential when determining who I will vote for' but that's not the same as 'discredited right-wing conspiracy.'

For the record, since everyone is skimming past my post already, I am not a Hillary conspiracy-monger. I did investigate (in my own humble way) the Benghazi issue and determine it was a CIA annex funneling guns to friendly forces (known as the John McCain solution to everything) and Clinton was essentially irrelevant to the entire scandal.
But that doesn't exempt a public official from record keeping, nor does it exonerate her for destroying evidence under supeona.

This is the person we all expect to be President - abuse of power matters.

[Izzle]

Originally Posted by Gozer

The FBI had one, narrowly focused investigation that included 5 immunity deals, that determined a Cabinet level official would not be prosecuted during an election (the latter two facts are factors in that decision).

I totally respect the opinion of 'inconsequential when determining who I will vote for' but that's not the same as 'discredited right-wing conspiracy.'

For the record, since everyone is skimming past my post already, I am not a Hillary conspiracy-monger. I did investigate (in my own humble way) the Benghazi issue and determine it was a CIA annex funneling guns to friendly forces (known as the John McCain solution to everything) and Clinton was essentially irrelevant to the entire scandal.
But that doesn't exempt a public official from record keeping, nor does it exonerate her for destroying evidence under supeona.

This is the person we all expect to be President - abuse of power matters.

[Gozer]

I don't care..what they're going to say...scorn never bothered me anyway.