YLYL Thread Sexism Discussion (split from Gay Teen thread).

[gargamel]

Originally Posted by Dion

Most of the women on this forum have made their views known in this thread.

I know that a few did, but I think there are a lot more women who post regularly who haven't made their thoughts known. Of the ones who did post, only one or two said that we should shut it down, but who knows if that's how they genuinely feel or if they felt uncomfortable taking a hard line approach or felt they'd be judged as being bad feminists if they said the thread was fine. They should be afforded the same anonymity in voting that the rest of us had.

Edit: Here's my quick count of female posters who have had their say in here (and please correct me if I've misinterpreted any of your opinions):

maverickistruth and eastern girl - shut it down

wittynickname and peanut - have problems with misogyny throughout the site and don't like or go into the YLYL thread, but never said explicitly what they think should be done with it

firefly and ex libris - same as above, but explicitly said they don't have a problem with the existence of the YLYL thread if the girlie photos stay in that thread and the sexist comments stop throughout the site

calgarybornraised - voted to keep but moderate and has a problem with sexist attitudes throughout the site in the context of you-don't-know-hockey-because-you're-a-girl (see Wastedyouth's post following this one for Exhibit A)

nyah - doesn't have a problem with the existence of the thread or most of the photos and said it does nothing to deter her from posting, but dislikes some of the commentary

misteeks - didn't comment on YLYL, but noted that there have been hot guy threads

minnie - posted in the thread, but gave no opinion on the topic

I'm sure there are some that I missed, but, either way, there are a lot more than 8 women who post on here, and their opinions should be taken into account.

[Wastedyouth]

Wait, there are WOMEN on this forum? I thought it was a hockey forum?

[tete]

I didn't realize that all of us women were required to post our opinions in here to validate the thread, so I hadn't posted anything. But since I'm typing now, I'll throw a few cents into the discussion, apologies if it sounds disjointed:

I have never been in the YLYL thread as a whole - I think I clicked on it once, not knowing what it was, but once I saw a number of posts, I never went back - never really wanted to.

What makes me sad on the site is with the way that a woman's actions tend to be judged by her overall looks. I've seen threads where if a woman is faced with a crime, if she's skinny and attractive, the comments are focused on her attractiveness and her "doability", if she's larger, less than the ideal, then it's basically comments on what a fat monster she is and she should stop stuffing her face full of food. Or comments on how if a woman isn't model skinny, she shouldn't wear yoga pants, or shorts, out in public, because it's gross. Comments that female lacrosse or rugby players must be lesbians and that only the unattractive play those sports. (Accompanied by the worst photos you can find of a player in mid-stride). It doesn't happen every day on CP, and often it's not an entire thread, but those posts do make me sigh and shake my head.

I voted to get rid of the thread based on the bit I saw of it and some of the commentary in here, but in the end it doesn't matter, I won't participate in it anyway.

[jammies]

U no what just ocurred to me, and it probly hasnt been brought up in this thread yet - if u think the YOLO thread is offensive, why don't u just NOT go in their? My 2 sents lol.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by jammies

U no what just ocurred to me, and it probly hasnt been brought up in this thread yet - if u think the YOLO thread is offensive, why don't u just NOT go in their? My 2 sents lol.

Awesome approximation of stupid internet comments. It makes me think of something a very nerdy and internet savvy friend of mine said: "Never read the public comments on the internet…NEVER. It will make you lose faith in humanity."

You lose points for using "probly" instead of the more often used "prolly".


And on topic, I can't believe this thread is still going. The voting is seen by some as a glass half full "the thread is fine because 50+% majority said so", instead of the more accurate "the thread is not fine because nearly 50% of a male dominated website (with just a handful of female posters) have said that it needs to change in some way". That says a lot about bias. If so many men voted against it, when they have nothing really to be gained by changing things, then it's clearly a situation that deserves some investigation by the management of the website. I initially voted to have it more closely moderated, but after reading everything I wouldn't flinch at all if it was deleted.

[Nyah]

Originally Posted by jammies

U no what just ocurred to me, and it probly hasnt been brought up in this thread yet - if u think the YOLO thread is offensive, why don't u just NOT go in their? My 2 sents lol.

Thanked for use of their.

[WhiteTiger]

I really like how some of the folks here seem to think that closing/deleting the thread (or, apparently, both YLYL and this one) will "fix" the problem.

The problem won't be fixed with closing YLYL. That may help a little bit (probably not), but the problem isn't YLYL, it's the "Surprise! Sexism!" comments, and those are peppered all over various threads all over the forum.

This is a problem that, to actually be fixed, needs time and moderation, not an overnight bandaid that won't really do anything to address the issue.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

I really like how some of the folks here seem to think that closing/deleting the thread (or, apparently, both YLYL and this one) will "fix" the problem.

The problem won't be fixed with closing YLYL. That may help a little bit (probably not), but the problem isn't YLYL, it's the "Surprise! Sexism!" comments, and those are peppered all over various threads all over the forum.

This is a problem that, to actually be fixed, needs time and moderation, not an overnight bandaid that won't really do anything to address the issue.

What gave you the impression that anyone who voted to close the thread doesn't also think the site should have stronger moderation against the overt and casual sexism that permeates throughout the forums?

[PsYcNeT]

At best, the choice to close/closely moderate the YLYL thread will send a message that the type of behaviour/attitudes mentioned here are less/no longer welcome on CalgaryPuck.

I'm sure there will be a lot of chest beating bravado fallout as well.

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

At best, the choice to close/closely moderate the YLYL thread will send a message that the type of behaviour/attitudes mentioned here are less/no longer welcome on CalgaryPuck.

I'm sure there will be a lot of chest beating bravado fallout as well.

Will it though, or is that just pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking? People getting posts deleted and handed sin bin timeouts and having it explained WHY instead of just going into the Sin Bin is what will encourage behaviour modification.

And for the curious...I voted to more closely moderate it. Despite being the threads biggest contributor (since I really like to share what I find, a trait I have in real life, as well), I find that the sexism around here can get pretty thick at times, and I'm very much in mind that it needs to be curbed.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

Will it though, or is that just pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking? People getting posts deleted and handed sin bin timeouts and having it explained WHY instead of just going into the Sin Bin is what will encourage behaviour modification.

And for the curious...I voted to more closely moderate it. Despite being the threads biggest contributor (since I really like to share what I find, a trait I have in real life, as well), I find that the sexism around here can get pretty thick at times, and I'm very much in mind that it needs to be curbed.

I love bringing it up because it makes people mad, but I've always held that every forum should follow the SomethingAwful transparency model, where each poster has a "rap sheet" that outlines all of their probates/bans, along with the date, time, duration of the probate/ban, offending post, and the reason for the probate/ban.

For those curious, I voted for the same option as WhiteTiger.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

I love bringing it up because it makes people mad, but I've always held that every forum should follow the SomethingAwful transparency model, where each poster has a "rap sheet" that outlines all of their probates/bans, along with the date, time, duration of the probate/ban, offending post, and the reason for the probate/ban.

I think many of us would enjoy that. I would also enjoy custom user titles along the lines of "blatantly homophobic" or "unapologetically sexist" handed out to repeat offenders, but I understand that's not how business is done here.

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I think many of us would enjoy that. I would also enjoy custom user titles along the lines of "blatantly homophobic" or "unapologetically sexist" handed out to repeat offenders, but I understand that's not how business is done here.

I would find that pretty amusing too, but agree it's not how things are done and I'm not sure it's a good method of behavior modification anyhow, as it'd likely come to be seen as excuse instead of the shame it should be.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I think many of us would enjoy that. I would also enjoy custom user titles along the lines of "blatantly homophobic" or "unapologetically sexist" handed out to repeat offenders, but I understand that's not how business is done here.

I don't think public shaming is ever the answer.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

I don't think public shaming is ever the answer.

With the recent events with the NFL and Ray Rice, Chik-fil-A, etc., etc., I'm going to have to respectfully disagree.

[octothorp]

Nothing would be more effective, IMO, than posters identifying there own behaviours that contribute to the problem, and cutting those things out. Personally, I'm occasionally guilty of the women-in-the-kitchen/go-make-a-sandwich tropes. (Prior to the current debate, I would have defended them as so archaic as to be more silly than sexist.) I don't need to query and ask if those posts cross any sort of line; even if they don't, they help shift the line. I think it falls into the casual sexism category, and I'll avoid that type of posts in the future.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

The problem won't be fixed with closing YLYL. That may help a little bit (probably not), but the problem isn't YLYL, it's the "Surprise! Sexism!" comments, and those are peppered all over various threads all over the forum.

This is a problem that, to actually be fixed, needs time and moderation, not an overnight bandaid that won't really do anything to address the issue.

I think pretty much everyone in the thread, regardless of their stance towards the thread itself, agrees with that. As for whether or not closing the thread would help, I think at this point it's complicated.

I think a major question here is what people think of "signals". As in, does it send some kind of a signal that the thread is here? Is it a more powerful signal at this point if nothing is done about it? Is the whole "signal" thing BS? Or maybe signals are totally a thing and closing that thread will send one loud and clear.

Honestly I have no idea whether or not the thread itself really matters. I voted for removing it because my best, hopefully educated guess says that it matters enough.

If nothing else, I would really like to get rid of amateur and paparazzi pics. I think that stuff is clearly problematic without even touching the topic of sexism and objectification.

EDIT: There's a different discussion about possible additions to the mod team. It hasn't been very active, but everybody feel free to pitch in if you think moderation is the key issue here.

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=139454

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I think many of us would enjoy that. I would also enjoy custom user titles along the lines of "blatantly homophobic" or "unapologetically sexist" handed out to repeat offenders, but I understand that's not how business is done here.

The thing is, the mods on SA almost never hand out custom titles/avatars. Most are bought out of anger/hilarity by other users for cash money. $5 to change your own, $10 to change someone else's. Brings in needed cash flow to the site itself as well.

Would love to be able to buy redtext custom user titles/avatars here. Oh man you don't even know.

[Tinordi]

So what is happening with this issue? Mods?

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by gargamel

I know that a few did, but I think there are a lot more women who post regularly who haven't made their thoughts known. Of the ones who did post, only one or two said that we should shut it down, but who knows if that's how they genuinely feel or if they felt uncomfortable taking a hard line approach or felt they'd be judged as being bad feminists if they said the thread was fine. They should be afforded the same anonymity in voting that the rest of us had.

Edit: Here's my quick count of female posters who have had their say in here (and please correct me if I've misinterpreted any of your opinions):

maverickistruth and eastern girl - shut it down

wittynickname and peanut - have problems with misogyny throughout the site and don't like or go into the YLYL thread, but never said explicitly what they think should be done with it

firefly and ex libris - same as above, but explicitly said they don't have a problem with the existence of the YLYL thread if the girlie photos stay in that thread and the sexist comments stop throughout the site

calgarybornraised - voted to keep but moderate and has a problem with sexist attitudes throughout the site in the context of you-don't-know-hockey-because-you're-a-girl (see Wastedyouth's post following this one for Exhibit A)

nyah - doesn't have a problem with the existence of the thread or most of the photos and said it does nothing to deter her from posting, but dislikes some of the commentary

misteeks - didn't comment on YLYL, but noted that there have been hot guy threads

minnie - posted in the thread, but gave no opinion on the topic

I'm sure there are some that I missed, but, either way, there are a lot more than 8 women who post on here, and their opinions should be taken into account.

Wait a second, you thought my comment was serious? I'd have used green text but I have heard most women are color blind.



Thats a joke