[News] Flames scratch Sven...again

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

"plummetted"?! It was one game, and Hudler scored the only goal.

I'm not referring to simply the games where Sven was scratched, but games where Baertschi was taken off their line and played fewer minutes.

[MissTeeks]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

Send him to the AHL if you're not going to let him play. Being a Flame fan is frustrating. The one game I understood but 2 straight games is BS. You have lazy players like Glencross who make turn over after turn over without consequence.

Maybe Baertschi needs to be Canadian for Hartley to like him.

The man coached in the Swiss League for God's sake. I don't think he has a problem with Sven because he's not Canadian.

God save CP when the inevitable Monahan healthy scratch happens this year.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

If you require simple reasons to explain this, and are choosing to take everything litterally that is being said (even though coaches are never completely litteral with the media), then here's a real litteral reason on why Sven is sitting (although I don't think it's why):

Sven, based on PPG is on pace for a 30 point season. His line mates for the bulk of the games he's played are on pace for an 87 and 60 point seasons respectively. Sven is not pulling his weight based on the opportunities he's been presented, based on the performance of his peers (Jiri and Sean), or the expectations of him going into the season.

So he sits. There is a very uncomplicated reason to sit the guy.

First of all, complete speculation (which you don't even believe, so not sure why you would bother) but if you want to discuss this hypothetical reason, I would argue three things:

1) Baertschi has actually been the one carrying most of the defensive load on this line, being the first back-checker, and being the deep forward in the defensive zone

2) His defensive play has actually facilitated the offensive play from the other two

3) he has been instrumental in several goals this year where he didn't actually record a point, but was nonetheless a large part of the offense

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I'm not referring to simply the games where Sven was scratched, but games where Baertschi was taken off their line and played fewer minutes.

And your statement is still full of crap.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I'm gladly that Hartley was being vague in the media about it. The last thing we need is a circus.

If it was something like finding out that Sven was joking around while he was supposed to be training or going through videos with the coaches, would it be a good idea for Hartely to air that publicly?

I'm not saying that is the issue, but there are literally dozens of issues it could be, half of which would be Baertschi's fault.

Hartley being vague is why we are having a circus. Too much non information that leads to speculation by both fans and the media. Hartley can end this circus by being more clear about what his expectations are and why players are getting the minutes they are.

[gargamel]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Which is a valid argument, in theory.

However, the (only) evidence we do have is Hartley's comments (posted a few pages back) which do not support the decision, as presented by the "this is okay" camp.

I took Hartley's comments to mean that Jackman, Bouma and McGrattan bring 100% every night and Baertschi doesn't. Of course Sven's 80% is still better than those other guys' 100%, but that isn't enough to get him on the ice in a season where building a winning atmosphere is more important than actually winning.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Not likely. He has a man crush on his Swiss goaltender.

This is true.

Hartley is human just like anyone else, meaning that he's susceptible to making subjective decisions. He seems to admire Berra (almost too much?), did not take a liking to Jones, seems to have a bit of a soft spot for Colborne, and appears to see more value in Jackman than many others. I can accept all that, since I too have my own preferences... just because.

However, I hope that the assistant coaches are keeping Hartley honest insofar as making sure that Sven is getting clear communication as to what he must do and improve upon. Sven's comments from today, though likely tinged with some bitterness, don't make it sound like he knows exactly what it is that Hartley wants. That would worry me.

[HighLifeMan]

The minimum standard that management gave Hartely in order for Monahan to remain on the team was for him to play 15 minutes a night in all situations. What I ask is why the hell isn't that the standard for Baertschi as well? Either he is good enough to play in those key situations that will fuel his development or he isn't.

In the games that Sven Baertschi has received more than 14 minutes of icetime he has recorded 4 points in 6 games.
In the games that Sven Baertschi has recieved less than 14 minutes of icetime he has recorded 1 point in 7 games.

Either play him in situations that will promote growth in his game, or send him down to the AHL. That is all I ask.

You don't learn how to become a complete player by sitting in the pressbox and watching your team get #### on when you are out of the lineup. He needs to play in key situations in order to develop. Whether that is in the NHL or AHL doesn't matter at this point. I don't want this kid to fail.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

And your statement is still full of crap.

Really? Monahan was a point per game through the first 9, Hudler was also among the league leaders.

Through the next 6 games, their production was more than halved.

I guess plummeted wasn't the best word, but clearly they haven't been producing at the same rate.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by gargamel

I took Hartley's comments to mean that Jackman, Bouma and McGrattan bring 100% every night and Baertschi doesn't. Of course Sven's 80% is still better than those other guys' 100%, but that isn't enough to get him on the ice in a season where building a winning atmosphere is more important than actually winning.

And I could accept that as a valid reason.

However, I have not seen more effort from any of those guys than I have seen from Baertschi. But that is, of course, just my opinion.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Dion

Hartley being vague is why we are having a circus. Too much non information that leads to speculation by both fans and the media. Hartley can end this circus by being more clear about what his expectations are and why players are getting the minutes they are.

So, you would rather have him humiliate Baertschi at this point? Or any player for that matter.

Some things are meant to stay between player and coach, including reasons why a player is being scratched.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Dion

Hartley being vague is why we are having a circus. Too much non information that leads to speculation by both fans and the media. Hartley can end this circus by being more clear about what his expectations are and why players are getting the minutes they are.

Hartley's comments have caused a "media circus", and I'm quite sure he could care less. Honestly, an NHL coach has about a thousand better things to do than to placate the fragile perceptions of fans and the media.

[Righteous1]

Originally Posted by Igster

You mean dump and chase and stifle his creativity. Just like Tim Jackman?

Lol he is in the line up at the end of the day.

Don't get me wrong though I love Svens creativity but he keeps trying those fancy one on one moves to beat the defence and gets outmuscled.

Whereas Jackman just turns hulk mode splits the defence and consistently roofs it top corner. he has potential to be Gretzky on roids

[Dion]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

So, you would rather have him humiliate Baertschi at this point? Or any player for that matter.

Some things are meant to stay between player and coach, including reasons why a player is being scratched.

The circus going on right now has to be a distraction for the team, much the same way it was between Savard and Gilbert. At some point you have to end it.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Righteous1

Lol he is in the line up at the end of the day.

Don't get me wrong though I love Svens creativity but he keeps trying those fancy one on one moves to beat the defence and gets outmuscled.

Whereas Jackman just turns hulk mode splits the defence and consistently roofs it top corner. he has potential to be Gretzky on roids

Surely you have higher desires for what Baertschi can be.

Jackmans and McGrattans can be found on waivers 7 days a week. They can be found in the minors whenever you want.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Hartley's comments have caused a "media circus", and I'm quite sure he could care less. Honestly, an NHL coach has about a thousand better things to do than to placate the fragile perceptions of fans and the media.

You seem quite willing to assume what the coach thinks when it suits you, but also take the stand that we can't know what he thinks therefore we should just accept it when that suits you.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Dion

The circus going on right now has to be a distraction for the team, much the same way it was between Savard and Gilbert. At some point you have to end it.

How can you in any way compare the current situation to what happened between Gilbert and Savard? No, the current fan and media frustration and concern does not have to be a distraction. More than likely, no one on the team has really noticed, or cares.

[StrykerSteve]

Originally Posted by HighLifeMan

The minimum standard that management gave Hartely in order for Monahan to remain on the team was for him to play 15 minutes a night in all situations. What I ask is why the hell isn't that the standard for Baertschi as well? Either he is good enough to play in those key situations that will fuel his development or he isn't.

In the games that Sven Baertschi has received more than 14 minutes of icetime he has recorded 4 points in 6 games.
In the games that Sven Baertschi has recieved less than 14 minutes of icetime he has recorded 1 point in 7 games.

Either play him in situations that will promote growth in his game, or send him down to the AHL. That is all I ask.

You don't learn how to become a complete player by sitting in the pressbox and watching your team get #### on when you are out of the lineup. He needs to play in key situations in order to develop. Whether that is in the NHL or AHL doesn't matter at this point. I don't want this kid to fail.

This is a good post.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Hartley's comments have caused a "media circus", and I'm quite sure he could care less. Honestly, an NHL coach has about a thousand better things to do than to placate the fragile perceptions of fans and the media.

Greg Gilbert didn't seem to care either and look what happened with that situation. It may happen and then again it may not, still I would think that Flames brass would want to kill it.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

You seem quite willing to assume what the coach thinks when it suits you, but also take the stand that we can't know what he thinks therefore we should just accept it when that suits you.

Shouldn't we give him the benefit of the doubt? It seems like the reasonable thing to do in any situation, when observing from outside to give the participants the benefit of the doubt until it becomes clear otherwise. So far as I can tell, Hartley hasn't made any critical errors here, and there is no reason to expect that he is or ought to be making drastic changes, or filing detailed reports to the media.