The 2016 Toronto Blue Jays Thread

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

I'd try and make a case for the literal exact same.

Nope, that was debunked a few months ago.

[Cuz]

While I agree that Alpine's views/posts about the Jays are usually on the negative side, he is entitled to state his opinion without a bunch of posters piling on and attacking him personally, especially a mod (I'm looking at you Jiri). There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with someone, the world would be a pretty boring place if we agreed on everything, but if you can't state a differing opinion without resorting to personal attacks, then perhaps it is best to just ignore it.

Anyways, lets get this thread back to discussing a great ballclub and away from bitching about a poster. Go Jays Go!

[JiriHrdina]

I don't think I'm attacking him personally.
I'm attacking his position- which is consistently negative and spun to present that negative perspective - ignoring moves and data.
I've not called him a name or anything.
I've attacked and challenged his opinion and the lens he is applying to everything. Which I think is fair game.

[Sylvanfan]

I don't know a lot about the science in regards to innings limits.

The Jays had no problem shutting down Brandon Morrow completely when they were out of it. He still ended up getting injured and never did fully stretch out to being a starter.

The Rangers said this was malarkey, let their guys keep throwing, and burned out a bunch of their pitchers.

The Nationals shut down Strasberg, but he also had blown out his arm and needed Tommy John surgery to repair it at the end of 2010. I believe it was in 2012, the first full year after he was back that they wanted to limit him to 160 innings, but a lot of that is coming back from that surgery.

In the case of Sanchez, if they're going to limit his innings, I strongly believe that you let him finish the season out as a starter until he hit's the inning limit that you impose, and you shut him down. I think the idea of moving him from starter to bull pen is terrible, because you're asking a guy to change his routine at the end of the season, and I do believe that this could be worse for him in the long run.

It's been mentioned earlier that the Jays could have stretched him out a bit by allowing some extra days between starts and spotting in Hutchison on occasion. Which admittedly is okay if you know you'll only play 162 games.

There is some added win now pressure that may be affecting how people do or don't feel about this move. At the end of the day, I suppose it's easy to say forget Sanchez...lets just go all out because we may not have this chance again for another 20 years. Heck even Sanchez himself may feel like he'd take the risk to win a World series and forego 200 million in lost future earnings. But this is the one guy that the previous GM wouldn't trade for help last year. So having made that call, I think you do everything you have to in order to ensure that this asset can remain healthy and serve your club down the road, even if it's inconvenient this year. If winning now was that critical...someone would have happily given you win now parts to get Sanchez and shut him down this year.

[TheAlpineOracle]

The problem with this thread, is basically what Mr. Coffee admitted to in his post on the last page, there's a lot of bandwagon fans that jumped on last year. They don't want to talk baseball, they don't want to talk strategy, they want to waive pom poms for the Blue Jays, and you are either with them or against them. Quite frankly, I don't think most of them know much about baseball. I think that's more than evident by the way they attack me rather than providing a counter argument. Look at the last page. Where is there a single post other than JiriHrdina that actually challenges what I'm saying? It's a just a bunch of drive-by posters, who if you look at the last two years of baseball threads, have contributed a ground total of zero to the actual conversation. You don't have to agree with what I say, but at least back it up with some valid counterpoints. There's only about 4-5 posters in here who actually do that. (Jiggy 12, jayswin, parallex, JiriHrdina, and JayP). I don't have to agree with them and they don't have to agree with me, but at least we both have a legitimate opinion.

Because of the bandwagon factor of the Jays, anything that doesn't put the Jays in a glowing light is seen as negative as a result. Look at yesterday. All I said was that there's zero science that proves that having innings limits helps or hinders young pitchers, as a result I disagree with it, but I know the Jays have to shut Sanchez down because if something ever did happen, and they didn't there would be massive fallout. I then went on to say if they are shutting him down, let him pitch out his innings as a starter and shut him down completely because I can't see veterans being happy about him being moved to the pen and I don't think it's the right thing for his career.

How is that negative? It's an opinion, and a pretty well supported one in my opinion. Can any of you name another team that keeps moving a high end prospect like Sanchez back and fourth between the pen in the middle of the season like the Jays have done for each of the past 3 years? I can't. I can think of examples where players were demoted or shut down completely, but not what's going on here.

Look at the heat I took for Saunders by suggesting that his season to date was simply a hot streak, that he's not an all-star, and the by the end of the year would simply be a serviceable player and I thought Carrera would serve more of a purpose on the team if Saunders was eventually to be moved to the bench. That's not negative, that's an opinion based on my years of following Saunders on the Mariners.

Am I negative, yup. Do I have reason to be, absolutely in my opinion. I've followed this team for 34 years and seen the make the playoffs a whopping 3 times. The Blue Jays don't have teams this good every couple of years. It's a rare occasion, and even rarer that it coincides with Yankee and Red Sox rebuilds. Just playing good baseball is not enough for me to be content as a result. When they are in a position to win, they need to do everything in their power to get them over the hump.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Now back to baseball.....

At what point to the Jays put Travis back at lead off and move Bautista into cleanup or back into third ahead of Edwin? I think we are approaching it. Travis is seeing the ball well, getting on base, and is a decent base runner, and let's be honest here, Saunders is not hitting well at all anymore as it's more than just a cold spell at this point. Next to no power since before the all-star game and a plummeting batting average (I think he's down to .275).

With that change made, we have a revamped murderer's row, a decent lead off, and give Saunders a chance to regain some confidence in the 7-8-9 spot.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Smoltz opinion on Aaron Sanchez.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb...aaron-sanchez/

[The Big Chill]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

The problem with this thread, is basically what Mr. Coffee admitted to in his post on the last page, there's a lot of bandwagon fans that jumped on last year. They don't want to talk baseball, they don't want to talk strategy, they want to waive pom poms for the Blue Jays, and you are either with them or against them. Quite frankly, I don't think most of them know much about baseball. I think that's more than evident by the way they attack me rather than providing a counter argument. Look at the last page. Where is there a single post other than JiriHrdina that actually challenges what I'm saying? It's a just a bunch of drive-by posters, who if you look at the last two years of baseball threads, have contributed a ground total of zero to the actual conversation.

Who are all the bandwagoners? This thread is constantly full of good discussion.

[SportsJunky]

As is the case with many things, AO's problem here may lie in not what he says but how relentlessly he says it. He is negative and says many negative things and that wears others out after a while. We get it. Rogers is an evil corporation. The team is bungling Sanchez. Gibbons is incompetent. I agree with much of what is said...it's the repetition that you maybe get bogged down in. We heard you the first 12 times AO. A little balance is nice otherwise it can get to the eye rolling stage.

[habernac]

Yet the incompetent franchise is 1 game out of first.

[flames_fan_down_under]

I like the idea of moving Devon Travis into the lead off spot. The offence has been sputtering a bit lately so maybe a shake up will help.

However Donaldson has been a little cold lately so as he goes so does the Jays offence.

i hope Estradas back is OK because this whole back issue doesn't seem to be going away.

[SuperMatt18]

Honestly I am not sure I like the Bullpen move either.

The ability to stretch, prepare, and know that you have a start every five days feels to me like a better solution than not knowing if you are going to pitch that day, have to come in cold in the middle of the game and give your arm no real time to rest up.

Plus at least you know your arm is getting 4 days rest as a starter - are they going to baby him in the bullpen to make sure he's not working every day even if it is just for an inning.

I feel like if they want to shut him down then they should let him hit the 180 innings as a starter - 2 more starts and then shut him down.

[JiriHrdina]

The thing is no matter what the Jays did here - there would be people that disagree.
Allow him to just pitch through the season as a starter - they would be faced with criticism of putting their best young arm at risk
Shut him down completely - they would be criticized for throwing the season.
This is a tricky issue that folks in baseball don't even agree on. Certainly there is an element of old school v. new school in the thinking - which is largely reflected in what you hear from former players. And maybe they are right. However, the Jays are ultimately doing what they think is best. There is zero reason for them not to make what they think is the best decision here.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Nope, that was debunked a few months ago.

Really?

Mind bottling. The similarities are striking.

[cross16]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

The thing is no matter what the Jays did here - there would be people that disagree.
Allow him to just pitch through the season as a starter - they would be faced with criticism of putting their best young arm at risk
Shut him down completely - they would be criticized for throwing the season.
This is a tricky issue that folks in baseball don't even agree on. Certainly there is an element of old school v. new school in the thinking - which is largely reflected in what you hear from former players. And maybe they are right. However, the Jays are ultimately doing what they think is best. There is zero reason for them not to make what they think is the best decision here.

I agree with the theme that Jays are damned whatever they do. I personally don't like the idea of the bullpen either becuase I thikn what Smoltz said today is accurate, you are more likely to face harder innings in the bullpen then as a starter. Sanchez has probably had one the "easier" seasons I can recall a starter having. I'm not sure i ever even saw Halladay cruise to the level Sanchez has this year, that's not going to happen in the bullpen.

But what's the alternative? Keep him as a starter and then shut him down right before the season and then your best arm isn't available in the playoffs? I view this move as a way for the Jays to include their best arm in a potetnial playoff push and run while doing what they can to hopefully aid his career long term. Not perfect, but far from the worst option IMO.

[cross16]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

Now back to baseball.....

At what point to the Jays put Travis back at lead off and move Bautista into cleanup or back into third ahead of Edwin? I think we are approaching it. Travis is seeing the ball well, getting on base, and is a decent base runner, and let's be honest here, Saunders is not hitting well at all anymore as it's more than just a cold spell at this point. Next to no power since before the all-star game and a plummeting batting average (I think he's down to .275).

With that change made, we have a revamped murderer's row, a decent lead off, and give Saunders a chance to regain some confidence in the 7-8-9 spot.

Agree, Saunders has to come out of the 4 spot. With a few guys banged up and Tulo out I get it from Gibbons perspective but I think once Tulo is back you drop Saunders and put Travis lead off. Jays rode Saunders when he was hot but now he's come back down to his mean. I still think he is a solid player who is slumping and to be fair to him he's never been, not been sold as, a middle of the order bat.
But to be fair to Gibbons its not going to matter if the Jays don't change their appraoch at the plate. It's been brutal the last few games. Hopefully Zaun is right and they are just getting a big too greedy with the set up of the Astro's ballpark.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

The thing is no matter what the Jays did here - there would be people that disagree.
Allow him to just pitch through the season as a starter - they would be faced with criticism of putting their best young arm at risk
Shut him down completely - they would be criticized for throwing the season.
This is a tricky issue that folks in baseball don't even agree on. Certainly there is an element of old school v. new school in the thinking - which is largely reflected in what you hear from former players. And maybe they are right. However, the Jays are ultimately doing what they think is best. There is zero reason for them not to make what they think is the best decision here.

I feel like you can justify the other two scenarios a little better though - this one feels like wanting to have your cake and eat it too.

Just leave him as a starter - sure you put him at risk but you can flag that you don't see the limit as an issue.

Shut him down completely - then you can justify that by saying he hit the pre-determined limit and the staff planned for this.

In this situation it feels like you are trying to ride the fence - you agree that there is a risk but at the same time put him in the bullpen which can be an even bigger strain on the arm of a player. Especially if you are used to starting and then get transitioned to the pen.

[cross16]

I find this interesting. Pure speculation on my part, but I do wonder if the clubhouse is starting to get invovled in this. Gibbons traditionally has been a manager, IMO, that listens to his players. If they are getting upset about it, like Martin, it woudln't shock me at all if he brought that to management to try and change their minds.

Gregor Chisholm ‏@gregorMLB 3m3 minutes ago
Gibbons on Sanchez: "Truthfully, we're still debating what's actually going to happen. You know?" #BlueJays

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I feel like you can justify the other two scenarios a little better though - this one feels like wanting to have your cake and eat it too.

Just leave him as a starter - sure you put him at risk but you can flag that you don't see the limit as an issue.

Shut him down completely - then you can justify that by saying he hit the pre-determined limit and the staff planned for this.

In this situation it feels like you are trying to ride the fence - you agree that there is a risk but at the same time put him in the bullpen which can be an even bigger strain on the arm of a player. Especially if you are used to starting and then get transitioned to the pen.

If Sanchez gets hurt in the pen, the Jays are going to get hammered for trying to fix their bullpen at the expense of Sanchez. Get him to his limit than shut him down competely, or let it ride.

I just don't see any scenario that looks good for the Jays as an organization by putting Sanchez in the pen.

[cross16]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

If Sanchez gets hurt in the pen, the Jays are going to get hammered for trying to fix their bullpen at the expense of Sanchez. Get him to his limit than shut him down competely, or let it ride.

I just don't see any scenario that looks good for the Jays as an organization by putting Sanchez in the pen.

While I don't like the pen idea either, I think if you shut him down as a starter jays will get hammered for not having their best arm available to them when the games mattered more. Might be the lesser or two evils, but with fans and media alike both proclaiming this to be the Jays "last year" I don't think the organization is immune to that pressure.

There really is no good scenaior IMO, all of them have risks. I think personally I would keep riding him as a starter and just monitor the fatigue. If it means you don't get Sanchez for the playoffs well that is the risk you take.

I'm not sure Sanchez being in the bullpen gets the Jays that much further in the playoffs. Jays will get as far as their bats take them IMO, not their bullpen.