The 2016 Toronto Blue Jays Thread

[TheScorpion]

[TheAlpineOracle]

When Washington shut down Strasburg, they completely shut him down. I'm having a hard time understanding why moving him to the the pen is any less dangerous than leaving him as a starter. If you are sitting him down, shut him down completely. I think that would Hurt less feelings in the clubhouse.

[JiriHrdina]

If he moves to the pen it will dramatically cut down his innings while still allowing him to be part of the team and having an impact. Seems sensible to me. They shouldn't concern themselves with hurt feelings.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

If he moves to the pen it will dramatically cut down his innings while still allowing him to be part of the team and having an impact. Seems sensible to me. They shouldn't concern themselves with hurt feelings.

They should be when they are in a pennant race and the team gets to stare at a contentious issues among the veterans days in and day out questioning why he isn't starting. I can see why they are shutting him down (though I disagree with because there are just as many studies the other way), but if they are shutting him down it should be for the year.

[TheAlpineOracle]

You can say it shouldn't matter about their feelings all you want, but it's clearly pissing some off. Martin didn't really Mince words in that interview. He thinks he should be starting, he sees no issues behind the plate, and that it should be a decision Sanchez makes.

[JiriHrdina]

Of course you disagree. You disagree with everything they do and are silent when they do make good moves.
What puts you in any sort of position to make a judgement. They are doing what is right for the player in the long-run and I'm sure they have consulted people that actually have some expertise in the matter. Having him pitch so many more innings year over year does present risk.
Players are the last people that should have an opinion on the matter because in every sport players will always make decisions that may help them win, but are not right for their health in the long run.
If the team is so sensitive about such an issue that this is going to be an issue, they are going to have the mental strength to go anywhere anyways.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

You can say it shouldn't matter about their feelings all you want, but it's clearly pissing some off. Martin didn't really Mince words in that interview. He thinks he should be starting, he sees no issues behind the plate, and that it should be a decision Sanchez makes.

It shouldn't be his decision. Players can't be trusted to make those decisions. At all.
And Martin just provided a straight answer, but didn't seem angry. You are jumping to conclusions to paint things in the most negative light - as always.

[Dan02]

Fun fact Grilli and Alex Rodriguez are the only 2 former cannons still playing in the big leagues.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Of course you disagree. You disagree with everything they do and are silent when they do make good moves.
What puts you in any sort of position to make a judgement. They are doing what is right for the player in the long-run and I'm sure they have consulted people that actually have some expertise in the matter. Having him pitch so many more innings year over year does present risk.
Players are the last people that should have an opinion on the matter because in every sport players will always make decisions that may help them win, but are not right for their health in the long run.
If the team is so sensitive about such an issue that this is going to be an issue, they are going to have the mental strength to go anywhere anyways.

There is not one shred of evidence that suggests an innings limit is good or bad for a young pitcher. For every study that suggests it's good there is another one suggesting a bad thing. Some are even saying the reason so many pitchers are now having problems are because they were subject to innings limits and aren't building the proper arm strength as they develop. .

I think you read what you want to read. As I've said numerous times, I believe the Jays are doing the right thing by sitting him down for the reason that should he get hurt down the road it's going to be a PR nightmare for them and the players association will be breathing down their throats, and it could effect some drafted pitchers signing with them. I don't have a problem with what the Jays are doing, I have a problem with the league wide issue of innings limits. It's unproven science based on what if scenarios.


If you actually think that sitting down a Cy Young candidate that is showing no signs of slowing down and doesn't haven't anything wrong with him isn't going to rub the others guys who have worked their entire career to but themselves in a position to win a World Series the wrong way, I think your fooling yourself. When you put someone's goals ahead of the team's it's always going to create issues. It's very much an army mentality. That's why I think it's best to just shut him down when the time comes like the Nats did with Strausburg.

Martin actually implies in that interview that this is a media driven Thing and if wasn't what was being discussed earlier in the year it wouldn't even be an issue. He's right to. Where's the innings limit talk on Stroman? They both were supposed to be subject to the same limit.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Of course you disagree. You disagree with everything they do and are silent when they do make good moves.
What puts you in any sort of position to make a judgement. They are doing what is right for the player in the long-run and I'm sure they have consulted people that actually have some expertise in the matter. Having him pitch so many more innings year over year does present risk.
Players are the last people that should have an opinion on the matter because in every sport players will always make decisions that may help them win, but are not right for their health in the long run.
If the team is so sensitive about such an issue that this is going to be an issue, they are going to have the mental strength to go anywhere anyways.

Wow - I am not a regular visitor this thread. Maybe its time to check it out some more. Beats arguing about Jankowski all summer long.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Wow - I am not a regular visitor this thread. Maybe its time to check it out some more. Beats arguing about Jankowski all summer long.

Nothing beats arguing about Jankowski all summer.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

There is not one shred of evidence that suggests an innings limit is good or bad for a young pitcher. For every study that suggests it's good there is another one suggesting a bad thing. Some are even saying the reason so many pitchers are now having problems are because they were subject to innings limits and aren't building the proper arm strength as they develop. .

I'm not an expert on it - but I trust that those in the organization know more than me. However, if you are saying that there are studies that support it, then that would indeed mean there is some 'shred of evidence'

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

I think you read what you want to read. As I've said numerous times, I believe the Jays are doing the right thing by sitting him down for the reason that should he get hurt down the road it's going to be a PR nightmare for them and the players association will be breathing down their throats, and it could effect some drafted pitchers signing with them. I don't have a problem with what the Jays are doing, I have a problem with the league wide issue of innings limits. It's unproven science based on what if scenarios.

What I find mind boggling is that you agree with them limiting his innings but not moving to the pen. Did the Nats not wait until too late in the season for that even to be an option.

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

If you actually think that sitting down a Cy Young candidate that is showing no signs of slowing down and doesn't haven't anything wrong with him isn't going to rub the others guys who have worked their entire career to but themselves in a position to win a World Series the wrong way, I think Syour fooling yourself. When you put someone's goals ahead of the team's it's always going to create issues. It's very much an army mentality. That's why I think it's best to just shut him down when the time comes like the Nats did with Strausburg.

Martin actually implies in that interview that this is a media driven Thing and if wasn't what was being discussed earlier in the year it wouldn't even be an issue. He's right to. Where's the innings limit talk on Stroman? They both were supposed to be subject to the same limit.

It isn't putting an individual's goals ahead of the team - it is making the right decision for the player and organization long-term. He is probably the most important asset in the entire organization.

And now you are saying this was media manufactured? What a joke. From what I remember and read, the plan was always for Stroman to pitch about 200 innings this year.

[TheAlpineOracle]

I think it was always going to be an issue, but the media started talking about this so early that its rearing its head before it had to. Such is life on Toronto though.

There's no shred of concluding evidence one way or the other. It's all people's thoughts and opinions for now.

Personally, I think pitching is an unnatural motion and you ate never going to get away from injuries. Some guys bodies handle it better than others.

We'll see in ten years which medical side was right. Not enough evidence now though.

[TheAlpineOracle]

The Jays are Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

If Martin can turn Liriano's season around like he did when he was in Pittsburgh, it will be a little easier to forget about.

[Lil Pedro]

Mariners!

[Mr.Coffee]

Alpine oracle I've been following this just in time to suitably be called a bandwagoner, but actually even a little before it all took off with the trades- so call it a year and a half since I've started following the Jays and subsequently this thread.

I have never seen a post of yours that has supported what the Jays are doing.

Honestly, ever. Have you made any? Admittedly I don't read every post but you have to be one of the most negative fans I have ever read.

[habernac]

Enough of the negative crap, the pitchers were awesome once again and two of our guys hit a couple of bombs. Next.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Alpine oracle I've been following this just in time to suitably be called a bandwagoner, but actually even a little before it all took off with the trades- so call it a year and a half since I've started following the Jays and subsequently this thread.

I have never seen a post of yours that has supported what the Jays are doing.

Honestly, ever. Have you made any? Admittedly I don't read every post but you have to be one of the most negative fans I have ever read.

He is like a reincarnation of moon

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

He is like a reincarnation of moon

Worse

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by calculoso

Worse

I'd try and make a case for the literal exact same.