[Trade] Flames trade Mangiapane to Capitals for COL 2025 2nd

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Johnny told them what deal he would accept.
They agreed to give him that.
They thought it was done to the point that they started to arrange for a press conference and what not
But then he went silent and then pulled out.

What Conroy is doing with Ras is the right way to handle these situations.

Yeah, the 11th hour change of heart sucks but it was always a possibility and despite what anyone thinks, was Johnny's right to do.

It was naive how GMBT handled. Even his post losing Johnny presser was embarrassing.

GMBT is the king of almost could have been. What's amazing is that he provides that as evidence of his work, like it matters or something.

The lone ranger that did a couple of good things and almost accomplished greatness! Almost! Almost Hall. Almost Eichel! Almost Rantanen! That should count for something right? Right?

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Not getting a deal done is on Treliving. To me giving him a pass for not getting that deal done despite it being close would be like giving him credit for finishing as the runner up on the various trades we heard about.

Should he get credit for almost getting Rantanen this year had Marner waived his NMC?

What would you have done different in that situation? When you agree to a deal that the other side presented, and they call last second and walk away? Would you beg and plead with more money?

You cant force people to sign.

You can blame is a lot more for Chucky. Johnny not as much, because not many here would have signed him the offseason before to a big money deal. He even started on the 2nd line in camp.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Johnny told them what deal he would accept.
They agreed to give him that.
They thought it was done to the point that they started to arrange for a press conference and what not
But then he went silent and then pulled out.

Facts are facts and there was no deal that got done and that is on Treliving who decided negotiating at the 11th hour was the right play. It was also reported the Flames made their significant changes to the offer the day before free agency to close the gap but obviously it was too late.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Not getting a deal done is on Treliving. To me giving him a pass for not getting that deal done despite it being close would be like giving him credit for finishing as the runner up on the various trades we heard about.

Should he get credit for almost getting Rantanen this year had Marner waived his NMC?

They simply aren't the same things.
The way the thing played out with Johnny is unusual. A deal isn't done until it's done. I get that.
But everyone thought it was done.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

What would you have done different in that situation? When you agree to a deal that the other side presented, and they call last second and walk away? Would you beg and plead with more money?

You cant force people to sign.

You can blame is a lot more for Chucky. Johnny not as much, because not many here would have signed him the offseason before to a big money deal. He even started on the 2nd line in camp.

I would have never been in the situation where I had my star player unsigned heading into free agency. Johnny should have been signed or traded prior to the season. The Flames should have either overpaid to get the deal done the summer before or moved on as this was their franchise player.

The fact he gave Chucky the 3 year bridge was on him as well which he is fully to blame. Chucky was looking for a 6 year deal but the Flames couldn’t afford it because Treliving decided to sign Neal the previous summer.

I don’t think there were too many people very surprised that the flames lost both players in 2022 it was visible on the horizon in the summer of 2019

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

They simply aren't the same things.
The way the thing played out with Johnny is unusual. A deal isn't done until it's done. I get that.
But everyone thought it was done.

So is your point that we need to give Treliving some kind of gold star for this and he should not be held accountable for this clear blunder?

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

What Conroy is doing with Ras is the right way to handle these situations.

Yeah, the 11th hour change of heart sucks but it was always a possibility and despite what anyone thinks, was Johnny's right to do.

It was naive how GMBT handled. Even his post losing Johnny presser was embarrassing.

GMBT is the king of almost could have been. What's amazing is that he provides that as evidence of his work, like it matters or something.

The lone ranger that did a couple of good things and almost accomplished greatness! Almost! Almost Hall. Almost Eichel! Almost Rantanen! That should count for something right? Right?

Conroy talks a lot about what he learned from the Johnny thing. That's great.
I just don't view what happened there being in the same ballpark at all as missed trades.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Facts are facts and there was no deal that got done and that is on Treliving who decided negotiating at the 11th hour was the right play. It was also reported the Flames made their significant changes to the offer the day before free agency to close the gap but obviously it was too late.

Facts are facts but context also matters.
Again Johnny's camp told them what deal they would accept
The Flames agreed to give them everything they asked for.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

So is your point that we need to give Treliving some kind of gold star for this and he should not be held accountable for this clear blunder?

Did I say that?
Not sure why some have to take what is being said, and try to exaggerate and twist it.

[FanSince'01]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I would have never been in the situation where I had my star player unsigned heading into free agency. Johnny should have been signed or traded prior to the season. The Flames should have either overpaid to get the deal done the summer before or moved on as this was their franchise player.

The fact he gave Chucky the 3 year bridge was on him as well which he is fully to blame. Chucky was looking for a 6 year deal but the Flames couldn’t afford it because Treliving decided to sign Neal the previous summer.

I don’t think there were too many people very surprised that the flames lost both players in 2022 it was visible on the horizon in the summer of 2019

Agree with all your points here, but I thought the "official" reason Treliving felt he had to bridge Matthew was because he wanted to "keep the band together" and was unwilling to trade Frolik and his $4.3 million salary to free up space for Tkachuk.

Probably both are true, tbh, as Neal's contract which was then parlayed into Lucic's contract obviously didn't help things lol

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Facts are facts but context also matters.
Again Johnny's camp told them what deal they would accept
The Flames agreed to give them everything they asked for.

IDK, my career was in enterprise software sales and one of the first lessons I learned was a deal is done not even when the contract is signed, but when the first invoice is fully paid.

I think GMBT had a dream job and that Johnny miss suggests a level of incompetence that's hard to defend, especially when you hear about how he liked to lone wolf decisions.

In retrospect, seeing how great our scouts are, that last bit might even annoy me more than losing Johnny for nothing because we don't even know what we would have had with the picks he either used for 'his guys' or traded away.

Anyways, I think we'll just have to respectfully disagree.

Easier to do now that we have a beauty GM.

[liamenator]

Button should probably get a little more credit than he does for putting a lot of core pieces from the 2004 team in place: Conroy, Donovan, Gelinas, Leopold, McAmmond, Lombardi, Kobasew, Yelle, Ference, Lowry all acquired or drafted by Button. He kept Iginla in Calgary -- we forget today that the 2 year 13.5M extension signed before 2002 was no slam dunk. He also hired Sutter, though King may have gone over his head (not sure if that's ever been confirmed).


Button made a lot of mistakes and inherited two cornerstones in Iginla and Regher, but he built pretty effectively around them with what are today unimaginable limitations of resources and reputation. Sutter added Kiprusoff and fine-tuned at the 2004 deadline.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by liamenator

Button should probably get a little more credit than he does for putting a lot of core pieces from the 2004 team in place: Conroy, Donovan, Gelinas, Leopold, McAmmond, Lombardi, Kobasew, Yelle, Ference, Lowry all acquired or drafted by Button. He kept Iginla in Calgary -- we forget today that the 2 year 13.5M extension signed before 2002 was no slam dunk. He also hired Sutter, though King may have gone over his head (not sure if that's ever been confirmed).


Button made a lot of mistakes and inherited two cornerstones in Iginla and Regher, but he built pretty effectively around them with what are today unimaginable limitations of resources and reputation. Sutter added Kiprusoff and fine-tuned at the 2004 deadline.

Giving away Savard over a coaching feud and then firing the coach two weeks later (trading away his best friend might have made keeping Iggy harder), giving away Giguere and then losing St. Louis for nothing... those are some big gafs.

We had the #1 C gave him away and then spent the next 12 years looking for another.

We had a great goalie, a few years before lucking into Kipper. Getting Miika was pure luck. We got him as an emergency goalie, not as a future franchise player.

Marty St. Louis ultimately killed us in 2004. Not really that long after we let him go for nothing. I know he didn't seem like much, but there had to be a reason Flames scouts and Coates went and got him.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

What accepted deal are you referring to? The Flames didn’t get a deal with Gaudreau as he chose to walk which was a very predictable outcome. Are you referring to the near deal they had? That would be like giving Treliving credit for almost trading for the countless players the flames were in on but missed out on

The point I have been making is the fact the flames lost both Gaudreau and Tkachuk in the same summer was not the least bit shocking and was predictable by many that these U.S born stars would leave when they got the chance.

Treliving then reaponds to this blunder by overestimating the supporting cast he assembled and he trades the 25 year old superstar for 2 30 year olds and gives them 8 year deals. He also trades a beloved player as well as a future 1st rounder to sign a 32 year old free agent to a 7x7 deal. The team has now missed the playoffs 3 straight years and Huberdeau is a top 5 worst contract in the league. Treliving decides to quit on the team and walk away after he made a complete mess.

Looking back at the 9 years here there is just a ton of mismanagement from the Hamonic trade to the various other free agents that were allowed to walk, to spending picks on short term players in the middle of a rebuild is all unacceptable and one of the reasons his tenure was largely a failure and he should be remembered as one in a long list of mediocre-bad GM’s this team has had.

Pre UFA negotiations before he walks. Gaudreau says we can do 8x10.5. Flames say yes and he ghosts them.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Not getting a deal done is on Treliving. To me giving him a pass for not getting that deal done despite it being close would be like giving him credit for finishing as the runner up on the various trades we heard about.

Should he get credit for almost getting Rantanen this year had Marner waived his NMC?

Who is giving anyone a pass?

People pointing out that there's more to it than "letting them walk" aren't giving anyone a pass.

Plus this started with "Treliving is with Risebrough and Button for all time worst GM".

It isn't a big hurdle to get out of that muck.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Facts are facts and there was no deal that got done and that is on Treliving who decided negotiating at the 11th hour was the right play. It was also reported the Flames made their significant changes to the offer the day before free agency to close the gap but obviously it was too late.

But he didn't wait until the 11th hour.

He was on it the summer before but they didn't come to terms.

Do you know what the Gaudreau camp demanded? I think you need to in order to say a mistake was made.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

So is your point that we need to give Treliving some kind of gold star for this and he should not be held accountable for this clear blunder?

I just wish there was some real estate between a gold star and "it's all your fault!"

[liamenator]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

Giving away Savard over a coaching feud and then firing the coach two weeks later (trading away his best friend might have made keeping Iggy harder), giving away Giguere and then losing St. Louis for nothing... those are some big gafs.

We had the #1 C gave him away and then spent the next 12 years looking for another.

We had a great goalie, a few years before lucking into Kipper. Getting Miika was pure luck. We got him as an emergency goalie, not as a future franchise player.

Marty St. Louis ultimately killed us in 2004. Not really that long after we let him go for nothing. I know he didn't seem like much, but there had to be a reason Flames scouts and Coates went and got him.

Well, he didn't give Giguere away. He traded him for a 2nd round pick, which is not terrible value for a then-unproven goalie with 30 games NHL experience.


In any case, two things can be true at the same time: Button made mistakes such as you describe, but he also made moves that worked out well. On balance he was not a good GM, but my original point was simply that he should get at least some credit for the makeup of the 2004 team that brought us so much joy.

[IamNotKenKing]

Originally Posted by liamenator

Button should probably get a little more credit than he does for putting a lot of core pieces from the 2004 team in place: Conroy, Donovan, Gelinas, Leopold, McAmmond, Lombardi, Kobasew, Yelle, Ference, Lowry all acquired or drafted by Button. He kept Iginla in Calgary -- we forget today that the 2 year 13.5M extension signed before 2002 was no slam dunk. He also hired Sutter, though King may have gone over his head (not sure if that's ever been confirmed).


Button made a lot of mistakes and inherited two cornerstones in Iginla and Regher, but he built pretty effectively around them with what are today unimaginable limitations of resources and reputation. Sutter added Kiprusoff and fine-tuned at the 2004 deadline.

I like Button as a person, but he actually screwed up in regard to McAmmond.
He played one year for us (2001-02), then was traded him to Colorado in October 2002, then traded back in March, 2003, but due to the rules at the time (waiver draft) McAmmond could not play for us the season we got him back (2002-03).

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Facts are facts but context also matters.
Again Johnny's camp told them what deal they would accept
The Flames agreed to give them everything they asked for.

The Flames reportedly didn’t really make a big change in their offer until the eve of free agency. Trelviing tried to use time as leverage and lost. It was reported the flames made the significant change to their offer in the final day.

My whole point is Treliving was a bad GM that created the mess he made in Calgary and there seem to be some people who want to discount some of his biggest mistakes. I supported Brad for most of his time in Calgary but looking back at his history it was very mismanaged and not just bad coaching hires.