[Trade] Flames trade Mangiapane to Capitals for COL 2025 2nd

[Finger Cookin]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

It is really unfair to rank some GMs actually. For instance, Flecher was AWESOME... Flames went to the finals and won a cup with him, and made the playoffs what - 14? 15? - straight seasons under his watch? However, why was he a good GM?

Fletcher was our only GM from an era where all player moves could be evaluated strictly from a hockey perspective. He didn't have to consider how much cap space he had, if he had to take on money to make a deal work, whether a draft pick would hold out to try and force a move to a more lucrative tax-friendly market, what the Canadian dollar was trading at versus the US dollar, and on and on and on. He could just evaluate hockey players with his staff and make deals with the sole focus of making the hockey team better. And he was good at it.

It's telling that he left town right around when all of these other factors started influencing the league and the Calgary market. And that he ended up where he didn't have to consider any of the extraneous factors again, as he could spend the Leaf's Monopoly money freely.

This isn't to undersell his ability, because he was great at his job. But he's also our only GM from an era where the job was relatively easy compared to what it is now.

[Ped]

Labanc cashed in a year later, when his stats took a downturn but he still signed a deal with a cap hit of 4.725. It was floated that he had actually agreed to that contract the year before but Sharks couldn't afford it yet.

[habernac]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I always felt Coates deserved more time. He made a lot of savvy moves and with more time I think he would have built something.

I feel the same, but did he want the job long term? Not sure if I’m making that up in my head or I’m sort of remembering something if that makes sense.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by mikephoen

Every GM has to deal with pressure from the owner(s). I don't think Treliving should get a pass, as convincing the owner to make the right move instead of the wrong one is part of the job. Feaster for sure dealt with this. Maybe Riseborough had more free reign back in the day, but I kind of doubt it. Personally, I'd take Feaster over Treliving or Button. Riseborough is probably the worst, but we may need to revisit that as those last contracts Treliving signed will still be on the books for a long time yet.

Not sure many would agree with that Feaster was probably the biggest yes man.

It’s a shame he was the one who traded Iginla.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I don’t think hindsight is necessary when discussing concerns that Gaudreau could walk there were a lot of fans that felt he was going to walk back to the East US. The fact Treliving couldn’t get a deal done then was his failure and he rolled the dice and lost a star player for nothing. He put Tkachuk in the drivers seat with the $9M QO and him flexing that to get out was also not that surprising.

When I walked out of the Dome after game 5 against the Oilers I asked my buddy I was with if that was the last time we see Gaudreau and Tkachuk in Flames jerseys.

Ultimately the praise that was given for the summer of Brad was all due to self-inflicted shots where he fumbled the top players and then overestimated the supporting cast he put around them. He added 3 players to massive long term deals and couldn’t even flip the Florida 1st in the Monahan deal and he had to put conditions on the pick that cost the Flames the 16th pick and has them stuck with the 29-32nd pick.

The fact that he dumped the Flames and not the other way around makes me dislike him even more. I wish him no professional success and see he has made similar moves in Toronto where he has traded away a bunch of picks, has signed long term deals to mid level players, and is about to let a superstar winger walk where he will then use the free agent pool to augment his roster. Leaf fans got the full Treliving experience with the Rantanen almost-trade. Takes me back to Taylor Hall and Jack Eichel.

Well he accepted Gaudreau's offer from all reports and thought he had a deal done.

What dollar level after two 0.85 ppg seasons would you be willing to pay without knowing he's pop to 40+ goals and 100+ points the next season?

7M done
8M done
9M hmmm
10M too rich

[The Original FFIV]

Originally Posted by habernac

I feel the same, but did he want the job long term? Not sure if I’m making that up in my head or I’m sort of remembering something if that makes sense.

Coates would have stayed but got caught up in the ownership politics.

Riser was the seaman’s choice, Coates was hotchkiss’ guy and when Edwards came on board, he brought in Brenner above Coates, which didn’t work/last. With Edwards in control, at least you don’t have competing factions jockeying for control and disrupting plans, but the downside is there’s not a lot of checks on power.

The kick in the junk is that Coates was assembling a good core, only to have it torn down by Button. Coates finally got iggy a skilled c in savard who was dumped for a bag of picks. Acquired giguere who was given away for a second round pick that never played and was replaced by future hall of famer Roman Turek. Brought in Martin St Louis who was bought out by button and we know how that ended.

Surprised Coates didn’t get another GM job after the work he did here, especially acquiring Iginla after being put in a very tough spot.

[CliffFletcher]

Learnings Edwards was responsible for hiring Ron Bremmer makes me dislike him even more.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Well he accepted Gaudreau's offer from all reports and thought he had a deal done.

What dollar level after two 0.85 ppg seasons would you be willing to pay without knowing he's pop to 40+ goals and 100+ points the next season?

7M done
8M done
9M hmmm
10M too rich

Look at Johnny’s numbers in Columbus he went right back to 0.83ppg so that was a risk the Flames took.

I personally would have never walked him to UFA. I would have had the extension in place or moved him at the draft before his NTC kicked in. I felt that way throughout the entire contract and always felt Johnny was walking after his deal was done.

Brad felt he could roll that dice despite the team missing the playoffs the previous season. Brad made errors that were pretty clear to see on the outside. Not sure why we are manufacturing ways to give him an out for his terrible management?

Brad also walked Brodie and Hamonic (who he paid an insane price for) out the door in a non-playoff year. He pissed away picks and did not pivot to add assets when the team needed a reset. He is absolutely going to use free agency to augment his team again this summer mostly because he traded away all his prime assets for a shutdown Dman and third line C at the deadline.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Look at Johnny’s numbers in Columbus he went right back to 0.83ppg so that was a risk the Flames took.

I personally would have never walked him to UFA. I would have had the extension in place or moved him at the draft before his NTC kicked in. I felt that way throughout the entire contract and always felt Johnny was walking after his deal was done.

Brad felt he could roll that dice despite the team missing the playoffs the previous season. Brad made errors that were pretty clear to see on the outside. Not sure why we are manufacturing ways to give him an out for his terrible management?

Brad also walked Brodie and Hamonic (who he paid an insane price for) out the door in a non-playoff year. He pissed away picks and did not pivot to add assets when the team needed a reset. He is absolutely going to use free agency to augment his team again this summer mostly because he traded away all his prime assets for a shutdown Dman and third line C at the deadline.

Not sure why you have to label a differing opinion as manufacturing ways.

I'm just saying they wanted to keep him, they didn't feel he was worth the ask the summer before, and had a deal to keep him at the end that it sounds like he backed away from.

You're making it sound like the only options were bended knee or trade the year before.

That's not the case, as the accepted deal would have proved that wrong.

[Paulie Walnuts]

We got caught in a really bad spot. Gaudreau production plummeted and Tkachuk also was not performing. Add in covid and it was really difficult to do much, and because you cant trade him caving in and giving him a large contract just because would be dumb. It was a difficult time to do things.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Not sure why you have to label a differing opinion as manufacturing ways.

I'm just saying they wanted to keep him, they didn't feel he was worth the ask the summer before, and had a deal to keep him at the end that it sounds like he backed away from.

You're making it sound like the only options were bended knee or trade the year before.

That's not the case, as the accepted deal would have proved that wrong.

What accepted deal are you referring to? The Flames didn’t get a deal with Gaudreau as he chose to walk which was a very predictable outcome. Are you referring to the near deal they had? That would be like giving Treliving credit for almost trading for the countless players the flames were in on but missed out on

The point I have been making is the fact the flames lost both Gaudreau and Tkachuk in the same summer was not the least bit shocking and was predictable by many that these U.S born stars would leave when they got the chance.

Treliving then reaponds to this blunder by overestimating the supporting cast he assembled and he trades the 25 year old superstar for 2 30 year olds and gives them 8 year deals. He also trades a beloved player as well as a future 1st rounder to sign a 32 year old free agent to a 7x7 deal. The team has now missed the playoffs 3 straight years and Huberdeau is a top 5 worst contract in the league. Treliving decides to quit on the team and walk away after he made a complete mess.

Looking back at the 9 years here there is just a ton of mismanagement from the Hamonic trade to the various other free agents that were allowed to walk, to spending picks on short term players in the middle of a rebuild is all unacceptable and one of the reasons his tenure was largely a failure and he should be remembered as one in a long list of mediocre-bad GM’s this team has had.

[devo22]

maybe I remember it wrong, but didn't the Flames basically think they had a deal with Gaudreau before he changed his mind at the 11th hour? That one's not on Tre. What is on him is not re-signing him the summer prior, but that's easy to say with the benefit of hindsight when in reality he had come off a couple of subpar seasons.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

What accepted deal are you referring to? The Flames didn’t get a deal with Gaudreau as he chose to walk which was a very predictable outcome. Are you referring to the near deal they had? That would be like giving Treliving credit for almost trading for the countless players the flames were in on but missed out on

The point I have been making is the fact the flames lost both Gaudreau and Tkachuk in the same summer was not the least bit shocking and was predictable by many that these U.S born stars would leave when they got the chance.

Treliving then reaponds to this blunder by overestimating the supporting cast he assembled and he trades the 25 year old superstar for 2 30 year olds and gives them 8 year deals. He also trades a beloved player as well as a future 1st rounder to sign a 32 year old free agent to a 7x7 deal. The team has now missed the playoffs 3 straight years and Huberdeau is a top 5 worst contract in the league. Treliving decides to quit on the team and walk away after he made a complete mess.

Looking back at the 9 years here there is just a ton of mismanagement from the Hamonic trade to the various other free agents that were allowed to walk, to spending picks on short term players in the middle of a rebuild is all unacceptable and one of the reasons his tenure was largely a failure and he should be remembered as one in a long list of mediocre-bad GM’s this team has had.

We agreed to terms with him, and he walked the last second. He pretty much reneged on an offer his camp made.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by Finger Cookin

Fletcher was our only GM from an era where all player moves could be evaluated strictly from a hockey perspective. He didn't have to consider how much cap space he had, if he had to take on money to make a deal work, whether a draft pick would hold out to try and force a move to a more lucrative tax-friendly market, what the Canadian dollar was trading at versus the US dollar, and on and on and on. He could just evaluate hockey players with his staff and make deals with the sole focus of making the hockey team better. And he was good at it.

It's telling that he left town right around when all of these other factors started influencing the league and the Calgary market. And that he ended up where he didn't have to consider any of the extraneous factors again, as he could spend the Leaf's Monopoly money freely.

This isn't to undersell his ability, because he was great at his job. But he's also our only GM from an era where the job was relatively easy compared to what it is now.

Maybe, but this makes me value him even more. If what you say is true, then he saw what was coming. Maybe he knew the Flames were too cheap to adapt (I recall that being the knock against them back then).

I think our HHoF players were looking for contracts in the low $1 million range - certainly Flames could have accepted that and kept the window open another 4-5 years, no?

Cliff also turned the Leafs from laughing stock to contender almost immediately by taking one of those contracts from the Flames.

Dude deserves his GOAT/legend status.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I always felt Coates deserved more time. He made a lot of savvy moves and with more time I think he would have built something.

He got us Jarome and Regehr. That alone cements him as #2 in my list.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by devo22

maybe I remember it wrong, but didn't the Flames basically think they had a deal with Gaudreau before he changed his mind at the 11th hour? That one's not on Tre. What is on him is not re-signing him the summer prior, but that's easy to say with the benefit of hindsight when in reality he had come off a couple of subpar seasons.

Yeah it absolutely is on him. First rule of management is that it is always your fault.

It got to that stage because GMBT is a bad GM. Should have been dealt with way before a top 10 NHL player could walk for nothing.

He is about to do that same thing with Marner.

GMBT = NG

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

What accepted deal are you referring to? The Flames didn’t get a deal with Gaudreau as he chose to walk which was a very predictable outcome. Are you referring to the near deal they had? That would be like giving Treliving credit for almost trading for the countless players the flames were in on but missed out on

Johnny told them what deal he would accept.
They agreed to give him that.
They thought it was done to the point that they started to arrange for a press conference and what not
But then he went silent and then pulled out.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I still don't understand the view that the Monahan trade is a debacle.
At that time he had negative value. The Flames basically traded a 1st for the guy who has been their best forward the last 2 seasons.
Why is it a debacle?

And likely the Flames will get a first rounder back if they trade Kadri.

Which would be in a better draft.

A pick 25 or so in the next few drafts will likely be equal to the pick we gave up.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by devo22

maybe I remember it wrong, but didn't the Flames basically think they had a deal with Gaudreau before he changed his mind at the 11th hour? That one's not on Tre. What is on him is not re-signing him the summer prior, but that's easy to say with the benefit of hindsight when in reality he had come off a couple of subpar seasons.

Not getting a deal done is on Treliving. To me giving him a pass for not getting that deal done despite it being close would be like giving him credit for finishing as the runner up on the various trades we heard about.

Should he get credit for almost getting Rantanen this year had Marner waived his NMC?

[Eric Vail]

Originally Posted by Finger Cookin

Fletcher was our only GM from an era where all player moves could be evaluated strictly from a hockey perspective. He didn't have to consider how much cap space he had, if he had to take on money to make a deal work, whether a draft pick would hold out to try and force a move to a more lucrative tax-friendly market, what the Canadian dollar was trading at versus the US dollar, and on and on and on. He could just evaluate hockey players with his staff and make deals with the sole focus of making the hockey team better. And he was good at it.

It's telling that he left town right around when all of these other factors started influencing the league and the Calgary market. And that he ended up where he didn't have to consider any of the extraneous factors again, as he could spend the Leaf's Monopoly money freely.

This isn't to undersell his ability, because he was great at his job. But he's also our only GM from an era where the job was relatively easy compared to what it is now.

If Fletcher's job was so easy, why didn't every team have a guy like him, owning the draft, making regular great trades, finding great rookie free agents like Beers, Otto, Sheehy, and others. His job was different, and he was the best of his era, or at least among the best.