[News] Treliving named Leafs GM

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I think Treliving for the most part

- boosted the team's drafting record
- was an ace on RFA negotiations
- was better than average on the trade front
- biggest weakness was UFA signings and coaching choice

The coaching thing gets further dissected with how you read the Peters situation. I don't see him at fault for Peters off ice issues decades before so really it's down to a bad Gulutzan choice.

Toronto has media pressure.

But unlimited resources, and certainly less no trade list issues when trying to trade for players.

I agree with your first point, and I do think he was pretty good at contracts. Trades were decent other than the constant shipping out of first round picks. But I liked that he wasn't afraid to make major moves.
But -- the coaching hires, IMO, were absolutely brutal and I include Peters in that just from a hockey standpoint alone. I think I was whining here about getting a coach with a track record for years. It took way too long for that to happen, and it may not have even been up to him by then.

Then there's last summer's situation. You can say he was blindsided, and you might be right -- but the GM can't leave the team vulnerable like that. He gave away all leverage to Gaudreau and Tkachuk. And now hearing how happy Tkachuck was with Treliving -- great -- worked out wonderfully for everyone but the Calgary Flames, which should be the GM's priority #1. It actually really irritates me to hear how gleeful these guys are that they left the Flames in a mess. I am really hoping that Conroy is a little bit more ruthless about acting in the interest of the Flames above all else.

Finally, regardless of all the dynamics around things -- its a cliche but its true -- sports is a results business. The playoff results weren't there, the loss of the franchise players within weeks was pretty much unprecedented, and the culture around the team was clearly deteriorating. There had to be a change, the era of Treliving was ending.

We'll see how he does in the ultimate pressure cooker now. Wouldn't bother me if he does well, but its time for the Flames to turn the page and embrace a new direction.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

People complaining about the Brouwer and Neal signings might want to go back and look at the UFA markets at the time. When you need a top-six forward, and you don’t have anything coming up in the system to step into that role right away, you either have to trade away draft capital, or go to the UFA market. And the UFA market means overpaying for aging players.

So if people want to say NHL GMs should steer clear of UFAs and rely on drafting and developing, that’s a valid criticism. But there’s no alternate timeline where someone else in Treliving’s shoes in 2016 an 2018 do markedly better in the UFA market. The UFA market is what it is - a place to pick up proven NHLers without giving up anything except for bad contracts.

That same team had Johnny Gaudreau, Elias Lindholm, Matthew Tkachuk, and Sam Bennett and instead of looking inwards and developing and playing what we know today to be top-tier NHL players with amazing chemistry, the team floundered, played everyone on separate lines, and threw in expensive spare parts from the UFA market that didn't fit. Looking to the UFA market and poor coaching were organization/Brad mistakes.

Given the poor choice at the supermarket, he should have stopped shopping and tried to make something with what was in his fridge.

[flames_fan_down_under]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I think Treliving for the most part

- boosted the team's drafting record
- was an ace on RFA negotiations
- was better than average on the trade front
- biggest weakness was UFA signings and coaching choice

The coaching thing gets further dissected with how you read the Peters situation. I don't see him at fault for Peters off ice issues decades before so really it's down to a bad Gulutzan choice.

Toronto has media pressure.

But unlimited resources, and certainly less no trade list issues when trying to trade for players.

Which for me was a major frustration as he was so willing to part with draft capital and yet our organizations greatest strength was amateur scouting. Being able to get affordable, controllable young players that strengthen the foundation of your club and offering you major flexibility with the Cap just seemed like such a clear advantage that he was unwilling to leverage. When you're unearthing guys like Anderson, Mangiapane, Kylington, Dube and Ruzicka, that should be a sign that you can lean into an organizational strength and not have to continue to ship out draft picks for depth players and ultimately spend precious cap space on older over priced UFA signings. Except Tanev because that was probably the best UFA signing in Flames history. On top of that with the knowledge of knowing how hard it is to operate in a small Canadian market attracting top quality players yet still leaning into the idea that we need to attract elite UFAs to fill holes. If you know that the market does not attract top talent then you must rely on your ability to continue to draft high end talent, which he seemed unwilling to fully accept.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Igottago

And stepping into the most difficult market there is.
If Calgary was difficult, I don't see how Toronto is somehow going to be less challenging, the pressure and interference is likely going to intensify tenfold.

I think it's letting him off the hook pretty easily to keep blaming the lack of results on Calgary.

Toronto is on a lot fewer NTCs than Calgary.

The Leafs also have far more resources for scouting, analytics, development, training, and all of the other off-ice components of an NHL an operation.

I’d wager virtually every executive in the NHL would prefer to work for the Leafs than the Flames.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Toronto is on a lot fewer NTCs than Calgary.

The Leafs also have far more resources for scouting, analytics, development, training, and all of the other off-ice components of an NHL an operation.

I’d wager virtually every executive in the NHL would prefer to work for the Leafs than the Flames.

Easy to say when the Leafs have a core in its prime and are putting up perennial 100 point seasons.

Wait until the good times are no longer rolling there (like it was for years) and see how appealing it is with the pressure and expectations.

Every executive likes the idea of being the guy that solves the maple Leafs cup futility, but it's way more attractive when they're already good and potentially a move or two away from breaking through. That's easy pickins.

When times are bad, no one wants to touch Toronto with a hundred foot pole. Miserable place, and you never stop hearing about it. Would be a nightmare.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent

Easy to say when the Leafs have a core in its prime and are putting up perennial 100 point seasons.

Wait until the good times are no longer rolling there (like it was for years) and see how appealing it is with the pressure and expectations.

Every executive likes the idea of being the guy that solves the maple Leafs cup futility, but it's way more attractive when they're already good and potentially a move or two away from breaking through. That's easy pickins.

When times are bad, no one wants to touch Toronto with a hundred foot pole. Miserable place, and you never stop hearing about it. Would be a nightmare.

But you have fewer limitations for change in Toronto if things aren't going well.

Budget
No trade lists
hometown discounts

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Later picks? I would consider only two of those players "later picks". Anything in the top half of the draft is not a late pick. Also, if the amateur scouts are so good shouldn't we see more success than that listed? Shouldn't we also see more players signing pro contracts and sticking around to develop in the minors and into NHL players? You would think that a team that was so strong at the draft would not see so many players go unsigned and not enter the system that is already so thin.

Well, luckily most people would consider all of the players I posted as later picks (Fox 66th, Wolf 214th, Johnny, 104th, Kylington 60th, Ras 53rd, Mang 166th, Dube 56th). Based on the statistical likelihood of picking an impact NHLer at those positions, I don't think it is hard at all to argue the amateur scouting staff has done a great job.

Throw Tkachuk in there and all the other players I listed that the Flames drafted (add Backlund too), and fill out the roster - we would have a very good team.
Do you happen to know our signing rate vs. other teams? Without any context saying we let a lot of players go unsigned is pretty meaningless.

[midniteowl]

Originally Posted by Icantwhisper

That's because you cherry picked bad trades, let's look back at some of his other trades:
March 2 2015 Baertschi for pick that was Rasmus Andersson
July 27 2015 trades two thirds for Kylington (One turned into Adin Hill)
June 23 2018 Hamilton, Ferland, and Fox for Lindholm and Hanafin (Two players who didn't want to be here for a pretty great return)
July 28, 2021 Zadorov for a 3rd
Feb 14, 2022 Toffoli for two scrubs a first and a fifth
also got Vladar for a 3rd as well.

He was better than average when it came to trades, not great with retaining or building pick equity and free agents there are some hits but a lot of whiffs.
Last year when we traded for Huberdeau and Weegar more than half the forum was gargling his ball sack, how many threads are there where he was being worshipped?
It's always strikes me as funny how we tear down players/management on other teams until they become Flames, then they are gods and vice versa when they leave.

You call me cherry picked bad trades and signings (in my opinion, mind you), so you agree those are bad trades and signings? Of course I'm going to pick his bad trades and signings and of course he has some good ones, if not, he'd be horrible GM, and I said it in my post, I do not think he is horrible or bad, just average. I've never, tear him down when he was with the Flames and I have never worship him neither.

[midniteowl]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Toronto is on a lot fewer NTCs than Calgary.

The Leafs also have far more resources for scouting, analytics, development, training, and all of the other off-ice components of an NHL an operation.

I’d wager virtually every executive in the NHL would prefer to work for the Leafs than the Flames.

Until the Leafs got stuck in making the playoff and outs in the first round and next year making the playoff and out in the second round with all those stars in their prime and stuck in that vicious cycles. How long will their fans be happy with all the regular season success and horrible disappointments in the playoff?

[dino7c]

They already aren't happy

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Then the Flames should not accept that offer. Market value is market value.

Market value is what other GMs offer. There is no set market value unless there are actually other teams making an offer. If the Leafs were the only team making an offer for Flames player, that is what the market value would be, regardless of whether it was Treliving making the offer based on advantageous information gained from discussions he had with Flames players while he was employed, or a different GM hired by the Leafs who might make better offers because he didn't have inside information.

Granted, this is a very specific situation that could arise and impact the market value of Flames assets. It would assume that the Leafs, regardless of GM, would want what the Flames have and that no other teams were interested.

The bigger deal to me, and I think the Flames, would be professional scouting lists and players to target. Treliving's list that he would have collected from Flames scouts and assistants is likely the same as Conroy's list, so it adds competition for attracting players.

[bluejays]

The Leafs' problem may be theoretically easier to solve than most teams' problems. Firstly, I think we can all agree, skill is hard to acquire. Especially young skill. Leafs have that at the top. I liked that Kyle tried something different in that to this point everyone assumed it was all about grit to win the cup and since the lockout there's been an increasing change in getting more speed and quickness involved through rushes and not just the grind game. Kyle pretty much was trying the other spectrum early on and saying what if you went with just skill? Certainly you don't try it just once. He stuck with it early on, and realized there was more of a need for grind-it-out players over the years. Now what we're likely seeing is another evolution needed, in that the Leafs have an outside presence and a great PP presence, but they don't have that grind-it-out presence down low to get dirty goals. It really looks like you need a good combo of skill, speed, grind, around the slot, but also around the perimeter. In the perimeter they have that in spades. They don't have it in the slot and they don't have the grinders around the corners.


The question now becomes can you fill those roles by dealing away people from the supporting cast, or do you need to get rid of a star player? I don't think Treliving knows the answer until he works the phones, but I do think getting speedy grinder is easier than acquiring a skilled player. I'm surprised Ryan O'Reilly wasn't good. He just didn't fill the role. You'd have to think at this point getting a guy like Perry is a year or two too late. Killorn may be that guy, but I think they misused certain guys over the years where in hindsight they didn't perform well - Bunting (oddly focused on diving and agitation; Simmons (focused on fabricated fights). The Leafs are close, they just have to find the right mix. Tavares isn't worth his money but he's not bad. He comes to play most nights but can't bust through people. Just gets those sniper goals. They need guys to bust in and hack around the net and in the corners. We'll see but I don't think it'll be a tough fix. Holding onto skill is tough as teams mature in a cap world.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Market value is what other GMs offer. There is no set market value unless there are actually other teams making an offer.

This goes for every trade. While it’s easy to come up with a valuation of a player’s worth in the abstract, the reality is that due to needs and cap restraints, there are typically only 2-3 teams who make serious bids when a player is available. And the best deal offered by those 2-3 teams is the market.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I think Treliving for the most part

- boosted the team's drafting record
- was an ace on RFA negotiations
.

Good means squeezing your own players till they want to leave when their contracts are up?

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

Good means squeezing your own players till they want to leave when their contracts are up?

Is that why they wanted to leave? Source?

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Is that why they wanted to leave? Source?

it certainly gave them the ability to leave

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

Good means squeezing your own players till they want to leave when their contracts are up?

So you want a GM that just gives the players what they want for fear of them leaving?

Weak sauce ... even for you!

[FormerPresJamesTaylor]

Treliving nickel and dimed his stars then gave big overpriced contracts to James Neal, Michael Frolik and Troy Brouwer. Brad would often trot out negotiation tactics like wanting more money for Frolik or the "Gio cap". No you don't give players anything they want (so extreme even for you) but you don't insult them. Maybe giving Gaudreau 7.5 for seven or eight years and not having him miss training camp would've been a better deal than saving 750k and claiming victory.

[Saqe]

That was always Treliving's MO, nickle and diming his own guys. Even with Tkachuk, who he personally picked, he didn't want to commit long term early on but had no problem giving the money bag to a guy like Huberdeau before he played a single game for the team.

[Manhattanboy]

Two of the most talent stars in the NHL were drafted by the Flames and just signed long term deals elsewhere on his watch.

One is a playoff MVP and poised to raise the Cup.

He was a terrible GM. So glad he’s gone.