Question for the atheists who see homosexuality as no more right or wrong than heterosexuality: How does this idea co-exist with the idea of evolution and natural selection?
Oddly stated, lots of religious people accept evolution and have this view that nothing is wrong with homosexuality.
Anyhow, here's a great piece I read in 06, you get 2 biologists, one very famous and another not so much discussing evolution and homosexuality.
Roughgarden is an awkward case that provokes a difficult split in people's opinions. She is 100% right that homosexuality is common and that its prevalence ought to be regarded more seriously as an indication of an interesting and enlightening phenomenon in evolution. However, she's completely wrong in rejecting sexual selection: in rejecting a simplistically heterosexual view of nature she swings too far the other way, adopting a simplistically homosexual view instead of a messy, complex, and almost certainly more correct mixed view. She's rather superficial in her treatment of Darwin. And most annoyingly, she has a bad habit of playing the transgender card and accusing her critics of disagreeing with her because of some LGBT bias.
Key counter points, the points are made at the link I posted.
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Homosexuality is selectively neutral. This is an idea I favor, and Roughgarden herself notes that it is counterintuitive.
Homosexuality promotes community bonding. This is the idea that Roughgarden favors: that some degree of homosexuality confers a direct advantage to individuals living in a community, because it facilitates bonding between same-sex individuals. It's a tool for avoiding expensive, wasteful conflicts.
Homosexuality is coupled to other advantageous traits.
Homosexuality is a product of weak genetic specification.
Homosexuality is a byproduct.
Also if reading is hard, damn you ADHD generation, here's a nice short video:
You make a valid point, however I don't have to wait 20 years to read opinions that are down right repulsive and disgusting. They are in this thread right now
If we could do that right now it would be the same conversation about mixed race marriage.
What we would read- "I have no problem with mixed marriages it's just that it wouldn't be fair to the child, I even have mixed marriage friends"
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It just shocks me that this debate even exists, because the notion that someone should not be allowed to raise kids based upon sexual orientation is so boggling to me. It just confuses me beyond belief...I feel like my brain is dying from reading some of the arguments...I think it has something to do with the "everyone in this room is dumber for having heard you speak" effect.
Funny, I find that most of my gay and lesbian friends are the most dedicated parents I've met. I don't know if it's because they worked so hard to adopt their children or because (for example) one of my lesbian friends had In Vetro Fertilization to have her baby (she has 7 children now with her wife). For some reason, my gay friends who have children put so much effort into being good parents that it makes me step back and see what I could be doing differently or better.
Of course this may not be the case with every gay parent or straight parent or whatever- but I have really learned a lot about patience in parenting from my gay/lesbian friends with children. They are great role models for me.
It actually makes me pretty happy that 81% of the people on this board are ok with homosexual marriage. 10 years ago that number would probably be 20-30%.
I am reasonably against gay marriage for relatively good reasons that have nothing to do with homosexuality. On the subject of homosexuals and society's tolerance, the daily casual abuse that is cast upon homosexuals, especially adolescents or teenagers, is absolutely revolting to me.
It actually makes me pretty happy that 81% of the people on this board are ok with homosexual marriage. 10 years ago that number would probably be 20-30%.
I would admit that 15 years ago I would have been a no vote for SSM.
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Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck
I just wish they would have created a separate (but equal) institution for gays to be legally recognized as a couple.
Are you F****** kidding me?
I really don't know if you're just playing up the redneck part of your name, or if you actually are ignorant enough to suggest Seperate but Equal is a rational solution to human rights questions.
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It's not that gays are not good, responsible people. It's the gender roles/confusion that can cause problems in the child down the road. I kind of agree with the guy who said the kid should be old enough to consent to be picked up by a gay couple.
A baby will not have the preconceived notions of what a family should be that you do.
Even if confusion were an issue, education is a better solution than banishment.
People should be able to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't infringe on anyone else's rights or isn't a burden on society. I don't see how gay marriage does any of that.
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Drury the Government does have higher standards for potentual parents of adopted children. As I mentioned before a single adult probably not be considered as an adoptive parent and if they were they would stand far behind a couple seeking a child.
It is fair and proper to look at both a person's medical, financial, and criminal history before considering them for an adoptive parent. The best interest of the child must come first.
I'm aware of the process of adoption. I'm also aware how the Courts handle cases determining the best interest of the child. In my experience, no Court asks whether you prefer to sleep with your own sex or the opposite sex when determining this. They base it on much more relevant factors as whether the parents are able to nurture the emotional and physical development of the child and whether they are suitable to make important decisions for the child regarding medical, educational, social and religious matters.
I believe you missed my point completely that a homosexual couple would make a suitable couple for adoption should they meet all the same requirements as a heterosexual one. I believe your point was that even if they met these requirements, you would prefer to see the homosexual couple not given a child based on the fact they have sex with a partner of the same sex.
Are you kidding me? The kid wouldn't have a choice either way. What if a pregnant woman finally comes out, and has a relationship with another woman. Should the government take her child away because raising a child with same-sex parents is just too "weird"?
A child isn't going to be so confused and angry when they find out it's more common for male and female parents. TV/movies/going outside all show examples of this every day. It's not like they're going to hit puberty and suddenly realize their parents are gay.
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I don't think its "wierd", i think its "wrong". So yeah, I think they should take the child away. I would be furious. Again, this is all just based on how i would feel in that situation, and i know I'd be livid. I wouldn't have wanted it for me, so i don't feel like its something that should be able to be thrust upon young children who may very well grow up to be just like me.
I don't think its "wierd", i think its "wrong". So yeah, I think they should take the child away. I would be furious. Again, this is all just based on how i would feel in that situation, and i know I'd be livid. I wouldn't have wanted it for me, so i don't feel like its something that should be able to be thrust upon young children who may very well grow up to be just like me.
Does growing up 'just like you' mean being extremely intolerant and prejudice?
Your response is disheartening.
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No. You know damn well you have called me an anti-semite.
I'm not going off topic anymore with you.
And you won't back up your claims. You are a major joke on this website, a troll and most of what you type is pure rubbish. You also do not respond to your accusations and allegations yet entice people into 'debate'.
If you are going to pull my name into a thread be prepared to defend your comments. I am fairly certain that many names you have been called have been warranted, based on your outlandish claims on this website. There is rarely a thread where people have not found you to be a tinfoil hat wearing ignorant fool. Your lack of education has been pointed out numerous times. Do you still not get the hint?
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I don't think its "wierd", i think its "wrong". So yeah, I think they should take the child away. I would be furious. Again, this is all just based on how i would feel in that situation, and i know I'd be livid. I wouldn't have wanted it for me, so i don't feel like its something that should be able to be thrust upon young children who may very well grow up to be just like me.
I'm glad people like you don't make the decisions in our world.
You do realize that if you were in the situation you probably wouldnt have grown up learning that homosexuality is wrong... and therefore wouldnt be opposed to it. Biology cannot teach you things like hate and morals, those are social creations, you are a product of your environment. You grew up in an obviously homophobic environment, my children wont.
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Originally Posted by jhunt223
I don't think its "wierd", i think its "wrong". So yeah, I think they should take the child away. I would be furious. Again, this is all just based on how i would feel in that situation, and i know I'd be livid. I wouldn't have wanted it for me, so i don't feel like its something that should be able to be thrust upon young children who may very well grow up to be just like me.
I find your comments to be repulsive and disgusting
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Originally Posted by jhunt223
I don't think its "wierd", i think its "wrong". So yeah, I think they should take the child away. I would be furious. Again, this is all just based on how i would feel in that situation, and i know I'd be livid. I wouldn't have wanted it for me, so i don't feel like its something that should be able to be thrust upon young children who may very well grow up to be just like me.
Do you honestly think that a kid who grows up with two dads or two moms is going to be just like you? Do you honestly think that thinking being gay is wrong is something someone is born with, and not something that is learned?
What would you be furious about? That a gay couple decided a child was better off having two loving parents instead of being forgoteen about? Would you be furious if those parents taught you to be tolerant of people's differences? What monsters those parents would be eh?
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Compared with heterosexual couples, the review showed that on average, two mothers tended to play with their children more and were less likely to use physical discipline (relative to the time spent with kids). And like heterosexual parents, new parenthood among lesbians increased stress and conflict within the couple. Also, lesbian biological mothers typically assumed greater care-giving responsibility than their partners, reflecting inequities also found between mothers and fathers.
"The bottom line is that the science shows that children raised by two same-gender parents do as well on average as children raised by two different-gender parents," Biblarz said. "This is obviously inconsistent with the widespread claim that children must be raised by a mother and a father to do well."
The scientists note they don't expect the results to change minds.
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Another concern has been that boys raised without a "father figure" will not have an appropriate model for masculinity. A study from the U.K., however, suggested that 12-year-olds raised by mother-only families (lesbian or heterosexual) scored the same on masculinity factors as sons raised by a mother and a father. Interestingly, though, the mother-only boys also scored higher on femininity scales.
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To amass the most exhaustive and reliable data pool possible, Stacey and Biblarz analyzed all of the research they could dig up, which amounted to more than 80 relevant studies.
In general, they didn't find evidence for differences in parenting abilities between two moms versus a mom and dad raising kids.
"[The research] pretty much shows that almost no study that has been done on this topic has confirmed this common sense assumption that gender is critical or that a father-mother household works better for kids than a same-sex household," said Brian Powell, a sociologist at Indiana University, who also wasn't involved in this review.
Question for the atheists who see homosexuality as no more right or wrong than heterosexuality: How does this idea co-exist with the idea of evolution and natural selection?
This is a really weird question. Social evolution is completely different than evolution and natural selection. Social evolution can happen over a relatively short period of time. In fact humans have evolved to the point where social evolution is possible for us. Social evolution or de-evolution is going to change in ebbs and flows and has nothing to do with evolution or natural selection. Of course, you likely only beleive in micro-evolution, and not macro-evolution.
As for the question posed. When i was younger i used to think it was wrong... mostly because of what family members opinions were on it. However, i really do not care about gay marriage. I think that it is an issue that should be put to rest. Everyone should be free to make their own choices in life and I do not believe that gay people marrying is going to somehow lessen the meaning of the marriage i have with my wife.
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