General Ongoing Coyotes saga thread

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Is Glendale/Phoenix that much more of an impoverished area than Winnipeg and/or Hamilton?

Winnipeg and Hamilton had a near-NHL arenas that was fully used paying its bills without an NHL team for years.

If the Jets were to leave Winnipeg next year (not going to happen) there would be no panic that the arena was going to sit empty.

Economically the south west has taken an absolute beating over the last few years and then on top of that there is an excess of facilities in Pheonix, if the peg had 2 large arenas one would fail.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

The NHL owners and its board are a disperate group of families, individuals and ownership groups of pension funds etc, as such they are unlikely to have much of a single mind for anything, unless things go utterly in the crapper. They will, to a large degree like most boards, do what Bettmen wants right up until they can him.

I think you have a very misguided view on how the NHL BoG, or any BoG, operates.

You also seem to think that a group of owners who have massive business expertise, have built fortunes by running companies, managing boards and generally identifying and addressing needs/issues have decided to allow themselves to become puppets to Bettman. It's a laughable assertion.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by valo403

No idea, obviously the terms of his contract aren't public nor are a lot of the terms controlling internal NHL procedures. He was granted a 5 year extension recently, which was approved by the BoG (again not sure if that's simple majority, super-majority or unanimous), so they apparently approve of his actions to date.

I think he's made some suspect choices at times, but the vast majority of the criticism lobbed at him is entirely baseless and demonstrates a complete disconnect with the reality of his role.

Oh, I wasn't criticizing him at all - was just curious how "safe" he is - does he need to keep 8, 11, or 15 owners happy?

[valo403]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

Oh, I wasn't criticizing him at all - was just curious how "safe" he is - does he need to keep 8, 11, or 15 owners happy?

I know you weren't, just wanted to make it known I do think he's made some bad choices and don't think he's above criticism. It just seems like most of the criticism comes from people who have a fundamental misunderstanding about what his job is.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Is Glendale/Phoenix that much more of an impoverished area than Winnipeg and/or Hamilton?

Winnipeg and Hamilton had a near-NHL arenas that was fully used paying its bills without an NHL team for years.

If the Jets were to leave Winnipeg next year (not going to happen) there would be no panic that the arena was going to sit empty.

Apples and oranges.

MTS Centre and Copps Coliseum (and Le Colisee) are the only major indoor facilities in their cities. Jobbing.com is one of several in the metro Phoenix area. So every big event that comes to Winnipeg or Hamilton is guaranteed to go there. Glendale has to compete with others.

Also, Winnipeg and Quebec City had immediate replacement teams in the IHL, then AHL/QMJHL, while Hamilton has had both AHL and OHL teams, iirc. There is no guarantee (nor expecation) that Glendale could land a team at even that high a level quickly - if at all.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by valo403

I know you weren't, just wanted to make it known I do think he's made some bad choices and don't think he's above criticism. It just seems like most of the criticism comes from people who have a fundamental misunderstanding about what his job is.

And you do? You're the poster who denied that Bettman did the vetting of new owners. You've got a big mouth but your understanding is no better than anyone else in fact it's worse. The fact that Bettman does the vetting and so is responsible for many of the owners being in the club shows that he has tremendous power. You and other Bettman sycophant's always come up with the argument that when things go right with the NHL, isn't Bettman great but when things go wrong, he's just taking orders from the BOGs. You can't have it both ways.

[FakenHaken]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

And you do? You're the poster who denied that Bettman didn't do the vetting of new owners. You've got a big mouth but your understanding is no better than anyone else in fact it's worse. The fact that Bettman does the vetting and so is responsible for many of the owners being in the club shows that he has tremendous power. You and other Bettman sycophant's always come up with the argument that when things go right with the NHL, isn't Bettman great but when things go wrong, he's just taking orders from the BOGs. You can't have it both ways.

Unless of course he is and he announces to Bill Daley;

Can't I get some sharks with frickin laser beams for the Mayor of Glendale?

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

And you do? You're the poster who denied that Bettman didn't do the vetting of new owners. You've got a big mouth but your understanding is no better than anyone else in fact it's worse. The fact that Bettman does the vetting and so is responsible for many of the owners being in the club shows that he has tremendous power. You and other Bettman sycophant's always come up with the argument that when things go right with the NHL, isn't Bettman great but when things go wrong, he's just taking orders from the BOGs. You can't have it both ways.

I seriously have no idea what I apparently denied. I denied that he didn't do it? So I said that he did it? Is that what you're saying?

Bettman doesn't have personal control to approve a new owner, the BoG hands down that approval.

See here for an example http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=602201

And if we're talking straight background checks and other diligence that's done by Ernst & Young and NYC law firm, likely Proskauer as they seem to handle most things for the NHL, MLB and NBA.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by valo403

I seriously have no idea what I apparently denied. I denied that he didn't do it? So I said that he did it? Is that what you're saying?

Bettman doesn't have personal control to approve a new owner, the BoG hands down that approval.

See here for an example http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=602201

And if we're talking straight background checks and other diligence that's done by Ernst & Young and NYC law firm, likely Proskauer as they seem to handle most things for the NHL, MLB and NBA.

You have a short memory. New owners have to go through Bettman before they go through the BOGs. As for background checks, that didn't seem to mean anything when Boots applied.

Anyways here's a video on the latest situation. Even Kevin O'Leary has been offered a part of the Coyotes which brings it closer to Bettman appearing on the Dragon's Den. Kevin even says "Baitman controls everything".

http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/News/TV_Sh.../ID=2222775123

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

You have a short memory. New owners have to go through Bettman before they go through the BOGs. As for background checks, that didn't seem to mean anything when Boots applied.

Anyways here's a video on the latest situation. Even Kevin O'Leary has been offered a part of the Coyotes which brings it closer to Bettman appearing on the Dragon's Den. Kevin even says "Baitman controls everything".

http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/News/TV_Sh.../ID=2222775123

Source?

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by valo403

Source?

That you need a source shows how little you know but here's a quick source.

We can only hope Bettman and his office vet Vinik a little better than they have owners in the past. One person close to the situation told me that if the NHL had simply made a call to one of the people auditing Barrie?s Bear Mountain Resort in 2008, they would have heard enough tales to make their nosehairs curl. And they certainly wouldn?t have been na�ve enough to believe Barrie could be a legitimate owner of an NHL team.

Read more: http://aol.sportingnews.com/nhl/stor...#ixzz1sQu1cdJq

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

That you need a source shows how little you know but here's a quick source.

The fact that I need a source shows how little I know? Really? The fact that I don't just take the word of a clueless internet poster shows how little I know? Interesting.

And nice source. An opinion piece. Why did I ever expect you to come up with anything beyond that?

You're hilarious.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by valo403

The fact that I need a source shows how little I know? Really? The fact that I don't just take the word of a clueless internet poster shows how little I know? Interesting.

And nice source. An opinion piece. Why did I ever expect you to come up with anything beyond that?

You're hilarious.

Now you're making a fool of yourself. Try google if you want to be clued in.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Apples and oranges.

MTS Centre and Copps Coliseum (and Le Colisee) are the only major indoor facilities in their cities. Jobbing.com is one of several in the metro Phoenix area. So every big event that comes to Winnipeg or Hamilton is guaranteed to go there. Glendale has to compete with others.

Also, Winnipeg and Quebec City had immediate replacement teams in the IHL, then AHL/QMJHL, while Hamilton has had both AHL and OHL teams, iirc. There is no guarantee (nor expecation) that Glendale could land a team at even that high a level quickly - if at all.

Population Winnipeg 730,000, Population Hamilton - 721,000

Population Phoenix - 4,200,000

Phoenix can only support one arena???? And would be unable to support minor hockey.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Population Winnipeg 730,000, Population Hamilton - 721,000

Population Phoenix - 4,200,000

Phoenix can only support one arena???? And would be unable to support minor hockey.

Without the extra tenant, yeah, they can only support one arena. Los Angeles has three pro sports teams PLUS all the concerts/events that run out of the Staples Center. U2 isn't gonna play the Jobing.com arena and then the next night do a show in downtown Phoenix. So without the Coyotes, and assuming the Suns have no interest in the facility, yes, a town can generally only support one 20,000 seat facility.

Toronto has one. Montreal has one. Chicago has one. New York is difficult to count since the arenas are in vastly different places, and the only other place I can think of that has two facilities so close to each other is Detroit, but I'm not sure how far away the Palace is from Joe Louis.

[Tsawwassen]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Toronto has one. Montreal has one. Chicago has one. New York is difficult to count since the arenas are in vastly different places, and the only other place I can think of that has two facilities so close to each other is Detroit, but I'm not sure how far away the Palace is from Joe Louis.

The distance from the Palace and the Joe is about 55 km. There are other cities with two facilities close to each other. In Minneapolis\St. Paul, the Target Centre and Xcel Energy Centre are just 16 km from each other. Vancouver's Rogers Arena to the Pacific Coliseum is just under 6 km. The Shark Tank to the Oracle Arena (Golden State Warriors) is 60.5 km. The Panthers Bankatlantic Centre to the Miami Heat American Airlines Arena is 54 km. Like you said about the arenas around the New York City area, the Devils and Rangers arenas are just under 18 km from each other. The Islanders to MSG is about 45 km.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Now you're making a fool of yourself. Try google if you want to be clued in.

Stop this ####. Provide links with your original post, expecting others to dig up sources for your points is absurd.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Now you're making a fool of yourself. Try google if you want to be clued in.

You are amazing. You make a claim, I ask you for a source to support your claim, you send me an opinion piece and tell me to google it. Really?

Your so over your head it's laughable. You've never had a clue and now you're just making it obvious.

Again, support your claim. If new owners have to go through Bettman to get to the BoG let's see your support. It's apparently a well known fact, so really this shouldn't be hard, especially for someone with your wealth of (imagined) knowledge.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Without the extra tenant, yeah, they can only support one arena. Los Angeles has three pro sports teams PLUS all the concerts/events that run out of the Staples Center. U2 isn't gonna play the Jobing.com arena and then the next night do a show in downtown Phoenix. So without the Coyotes, and assuming the Suns have no interest in the facility, yes, a town can generally only support one 20,000 seat facility.

Toronto has one. Montreal has one. Chicago has one. New York is difficult to count since the arenas are in vastly different places, and the only other place I can think of that has two facilities so close to each other is Detroit, but I'm not sure how far away the Palace is from Joe Louis.

The problem with your logic is that there should be 10 times the bands, shows, conventions, with double or triple the shows per band that will play a city with 4.2M people rather than a city with 730,000 people.


Are the managers of the MTS centre just so much smarter than the managers of the PHx arenas? The people of Winnipeg have so much more entertainment $? The bands and shows just like Winnipeg as a venue so much more than Phx.


The absolute only reason that Phx would even be considered to have an NHL team in the first place is that there is more than 4 times the population of cities like Calgary, Winnipeg, Edmonton, Ottawa and Quebec.

Now you are telling me that this megalopolis that has a larger population than all of Alberta doesn't support basically anything!!!!


Wish the NHL would have gotten you to do the marketing study before they gave Phx a franchise.

[Vulcan]

This shows that Bettman has control of the vetting process.

Bergeron said Del Biaggio told him in December that National Hockey League Commissioner Gary Bettman's office had given special permission for Del Biaggio to buy a share of the team without being subjected to all the scrutiny the league usually gives to prospective owners. Del Biaggio told him the commissioner's office did not require him to show audited financial statements before it approved him.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/hocke...-biaggio_N.htm