Elliot Friedman believes Treliving may not be back next season

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Karl

Thing is, most of those players are at least a little better than Chiasson (A LOT better in the case of Rakell).

The only guys you listed that I wouldn't care to have over Chiasson in that list are Ryan Hartman & Melker Karlsson, who are about as good as Chiasson.

No argument from me. I'd even take Hartman over Chiasson. Even so my point was to highlight the fact that a lot of contenders have guys who really belong on the third or fourth line playing on the top line. Their fourth liner might be better than our fourth liner, but that's indicative of depth, not just Chiasson's own ability.

People are going to have to get used to a near-nobody making <$1.5mil playing on our top line.

[Finger Cookin]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

I feel like people only watched Brouwer in the playoffs last year and expected that every night.

Well, people are still disappointed that Ferland doesn't play every game like the Vancouver series. So...

[1qqaaz]

I voted "no", because player/prospect development has continued to be almost non-existent on Calgary. And nothing is more important for team success than player development.

The only regular players on the Flames that spent considerable time in the AHL are Brodie, Backlund, Bouma, and Ferland (all Sutter picks). No one since the 2010 draft.

Until Treliving can improve player development, the Flames are not going to succeed.
Development is more important than drafting, trading, winning, and signing.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

I voted "no", because player/prospect development has continued to be almost non-existent on Calgary. And nothing is more important for team success than player development.

The only regular players on the Flames that spent considerable time in the AHL are Brodie, Backlund, Bouma, and Ferland (all Sutter picks). No one since the 2010 draft.

Until Treliving can improve player development, the Flames are not going to succeed.
Development is more important than drafting, trading, winning, and signing.

Not sure how you can make that distinction on Treliving already. There are Feaster picks that are still young enough not to be considered busts. Judge Treliving's development, sure....5 years from now.

[N-E-B]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

I voted "no", because player/prospect development has continued to be almost non-existent on Calgary. And nothing is more important for team success than player development.

The only regular players on the Flames that spent considerable time in the AHL are Brodie, Backlund, Bouma, and Ferland (all Sutter picks). No one since the 2010 draft.

Until Treliving can improve player development, the Flames are not going to succeed.
Development is more important than drafting, trading, winning, and signing.

Not really sure how any of that is on the GM, if anything that's on the coaching staff in Stockton. Maybe Treliving is picking the wrong place for guys to play, but that seems like a bit of a stretch to me.

[JerryUnderscore]

When I listened to Friedman's piece, the impression I got was that the Flames are planning to wait until this summer and see if any GM's become available before deciding to renew Tre or not.

If no good GM's are available, then re-sign him no problem. But would you still want Treliving has GM if Holland, Bowman, Yzerman or Lamoriello were available?

As much as Tre doesn't like not having a contract (I don't blame him, I wouldn't like it either), what do the Flames gain by giving him a new contract now? I'm sure he would enjoy the vote of confidence, but they lose nothing by waiting until the summer to see who's available.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

Not really sure how any of that is on the GM, if anything that's on the coaching staff in Stockton. Maybe Treliving is picking the wrong place for guys to play, but that seems like a bit of a stretch to me.

It is a little early to judge Treliving on player development but as GM isn't that ultimately his responsibility and should factor into his evaluation? Scouting department, NHL coaching staff, AHL coaching staff all ultimately report in to him.

I don't know enough about the 29 other teams to compare our development results. I just know its been a while since Flames have developed an impact player through their farm system.

[1qqaaz]

So far, neither Huska nor Gulutzan have been any good at developing players. Both are Treliving hires, if I'm not mistaken.

During Huska's first year as coach, nearly everyone on the team regressed offensively. Hardly anyone from that team is still a Flames prospect. No AHL call-up has been remarkably successful since Huska has been the coach. It's looking like the Heat might make the playoffs this year for the first time under Huska. Hopefully he's learning from his AHL experience, at least in terms of prospect development.

During Gulutzan's first year as coach, most of the young players have also regressed offensively. None of the AHL call-ups have succeeded.

If I'm not mistaken, one of the Sutters is also in charge of player development. I'm thinking some of the blame should also be on him. It's been awhile since we've seen any success. But he was not a Treliving hire.

I don't think the drafting is the main problem. Let's take the 2011 draft for an example:

Baertschi: Looked good after being drafted. We developed him poorly, then traded him. Now he looks like a good player.
Granlund: Much the same as Baertschi. Did great in the World Juniors, and even did well during his rookie year in the AHL. Then he also stopped improving. Traded, and now looks good.
Wotherspoon: Also looked good after being drafted. He had a +40 on his junior team and played well in the World Juniors. Not bad for a second round pick. But now, he has improved very little in the AHL. It's no secret that the Flames scratched him for long periods of time.
Gaudreau: Complete steal of a draft pick. Was almost entirely developed in the USHL. Never touched the AHL.
Brossoit: Looked good for a 6th round pick. Traded, but still a decent prospect/NHL backup.

All 5 have now played in the NHL this year. All 5 of them were great picks, but our poor prospect development resulted in many lost opportunities.

Player development is complex, and it's related to many parts of the organization. Only Treliving is involved in all aspects of it, so he should be held accountable. I agree that it's still a bit early to call Treliving a bad GM because of the lack of development. But if things continue to go on like this, we should start to ask more questions.

[Ashasx]

I don't think that's fair. In Huska's first year, the Flames began making it a mandate not to fill the AHL roster with veterans. The team of course declined a bit.

Stockton is now one of the youngest teams in the AHL, and they are competitive. Their best players are now also their youngest players.

The Flames had a huge problem using the AHL as a development league before Treliving was hired. He has clearly made an educated effort to correct it.

It's only been 3 years. Success won't be seen from development changes over night.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

Brouwer is probably having motivation issues. He knows he has his retirement contract, the team is not going anywhere, so why kill yourself? Natural human reaction. If the team was actually contending, you would probably see a much different player.

All those media puff pieces about Brouwer coming home this summer just before and after he signed were intended to show how a good a signing it was. However, at the time, I read them with consternation. We're paying a guy good money on a long term so he can land in a comfortable place to play out the rest of his career? Yeah, not a great situation.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

All those media puff pieces about Brouwer coming home this summer just before and after he signed were intended to show how a good a signing it was. However, at the time, I read them with consternation. We're paying a guy good money on a long term so he can land in a comfortable place to play out the rest of his career? Yeah, not a great situation.

I don't get this consternation though really, because the argument seems to be, from Vlad's perspective, that the team is junk so he's not killing himself, which what I really agree with.

He's in year one of his contract playing through an injury on a team that's in the basement. Sure it's admirable that he go out and give it his all but if he scores 25 goals instead of 20 does that really change the fortunes on the team? I don't think it really does, because the problems are too deep. So why kill yourself? Play the way the coach wants you to play, help keep the guys around you loose when necessary and tight when necessary and hope you get through the year without a significant injury.

Does he give it his all in year 3 and 4 when he might still be looking for another contract and the Flames are in a playoff position? I think he does.

[Tinordi]

That's all defensible. I just want players here that are more hungry than they are comfortable. And sure, maybe I'm completely out to lunch and Brouwer is really hungry for success here. But...

Comfortable is the old, pre-salary cap NHL. Signing middling old players on past glories for term and money should just really be avoided if at all possible. I predict that we will regret this contract if we aren't already.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

All those media puff pieces about Brouwer coming home this summer just before and after he signed were intended to show how a good a signing it was. However, at the time, I read them with consternation. We're paying a guy good money on a long term so he can land in a comfortable place to play out the rest of his career? Yeah, not a great situation.

I don't know if it is coincidence, bad leadership on an ongoing basis, poor coaching motivation, something about the Calgary water or just bad luck with particular individuals, but look at our recent signings of "power" forwards - Borque, Glencross, Bouma, Ferland, Brower- they have sucked/coasted after signing "good" contracts. Again, maybe just coincidence, but I would say don't give a banger more than 1 year - it's hard to motivate yourself to hurt your body if you have security and don't feel you have anything to prove...

[Machiavelli]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I don't get this consternation though really, because the argument seems to be, from Vlad's perspective, that the team is junk so he's not killing himself, which what I really agree with.

He's in year one of his contract playing through an injury on a team that's in the basement. Sure it's admirable that he go out and give it his all but if he scores 25 goals instead of 20 does that really change the fortunes on the team? I don't think it really does, because the problems are too deep. So why kill yourself? Play the way the coach wants you to play, help keep the guys around you loose when necessary and tight when necessary and hope you get through the year without a significant injury.

Does he give it his all in year 3 and 4 when he might still be looking for another contract and the Flames are in a playoff position? I think he does.

Indeed, why?

I think we would all agree there was an expectation that Brouwer would be providing some leadership on this team, and I don't think he has held up that end of the deal. It's been pretty clear to me that not enough players have shown the will to do whatever it takes to win. Giordano, Brouwer, and most of the other vets have simply failed in this area.

Not much separates teams in this parous version of the NHL. Going through the motions doesn't cut it.

[Flash Walken]

I guess I think it's just unrealistic and thus not expected that a guy will go out and kill himself to prove his 'leadership' value on a team going nowhere. He definitely hasn't displayed much of a hatred for losing but then again, who really has? Maybe it's hard to get so angry at losing when you're doing so much of it? Maybe it's a wasted exercise to get that worked up when things are going wrong and to stick with it knowing you're in year 1 of a 4 year deal?

I don't really get what else he is supposed to be doing to be honest. He's hardly the only one sucking and he's probably not near the bottom of guys who have largely checked out on the season.

There is definitely a risk that his contract will be a problem in the future if he doesn't display the competitive fire he seemed to show previously in his career, but I think once the games mean something he will show more.

Much more aggrieving is the lack of leadership from the team's leader. I mean, if I'm looking for a guy to demonstrate a hatred for losing or determination and the will to win, it's the guy with the C on his jersey, but I can understand the sentiment that Brouwer needs to be better to.

Still, I don't think beating his hands bloody on the walls to show you he cares will turn Alex Chiasson into a 30 goal scorer or Dennis Wideman into an elite defender which are the qualities this roster is REALLY lacking.

[dustygoon]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

Really? Versteeg is a stop gap and hopefully it stops after this season. He looked good early on now he just looks small, out of shape and making too many mistakes. Would rather see a young AHL guy take his spot.

Hilarious that you take issue with versteeg when he is one of the new guys that doesn't look out of place where he plays. Chiasson with top 6 role should be your focus.

[Machiavelli]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I guess I think it's just unrealistic and thus not expected that a guy will go out and kill himself to prove his 'leadership' value on a team going nowhere. He definitely hasn't displayed much of a hatred for losing but then again, who really has? Maybe it's hard to get so angry at losing when you're doing so much of it? Maybe it's a wasted exercise to get that worked up when things are going wrong and to stick with it knowing you're in year 1 of a 4 year deal?

I don't really get what else he is supposed to be doing to be honest. He's hardly the only one sucking and he's probably not near the bottom of guys who have largely checked out on the season.

There is definitely a risk that his contract will be a problem in the future if he doesn't display the competitive fire he seemed to show previously in his career, but I think once the games mean something he will show more.

Much more aggrieving is the lack of leadership from the team's leader. I mean, if I'm looking for a guy to demonstrate a hatred for losing or determination and the will to win, it's the guy with the C on his jersey, but I can understand the sentiment that Brouwer needs to be better to.

Still, I don't think beating his hands bloody on the walls to show you he cares will turn Alex Chiasson into a 30 goal scorer or Dennis Wideman into an elite defender which are the qualities this roster is REALLY lacking.

If you believe that a hockey team is just the sum of its parts then for sure Brouwer skating and hitting like he actually cares will not fix the top line RW hole nor the gaping chasm that is the 4D spot.

But if he (or Gio, or Monahan, or Wideman) goes out and pastes the guy who levels Stajan, or takes a number on the guy who slashes Johnny, perhaps that eventually trickles to the rest of the team and they start to follow suit and not just play for themselves and for their contracts and not to get injured, but for each other.

As far as results, the team is about where I'd figure they'd be in the standings. Poor to middling, which is fine. They're still suffering from poor asset management in the past few years, and it's not a finished product.

But, I see Monahan glance at a scrum and skate right by it. I hear Brouwer shrug off some vicious slashes on Johnny. I watch a team in general that half the time doesn't even look like they want to be on the ice. It's disappointing. This is supposed to be entertainment.

[killer_carlson]

i'll give Brower the benefit of the doubt for not dropping the gloves because I bet the hand isn't healed yet.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Machiavelli

Indeed, why?

I think we would all agree there was an expectation that Brouwer would be providing some leadership on this team, and I don't think he has held up that end of the deal. It's been pretty clear to me that not enough players have shown the will to do whatever it takes to win. Giordano, Brouwer, and most of the other vets have simply failed in this area.

Not much separates teams in this parous version of the NHL. Going through the motions doesn't cut it.

I think some of this has to do with poor coaching. We no longer seem to have a merit system. If certain players are not performing they should be sitting. Too many players on the Flames are being given nights off. I think good coaches nip this in the bud early while raising overall expectations. This was done early in the season when Wideman got benched but since then they let a lot of players slide and dictate the level of play.

I think if coaches sit players who coast while rewarding players that perform it will raise the respect among the players. Coaches need to separate the leaders and the wannbe's. Unfortunately these coaches still don't seem to grasp the importance of building a team identity and creating a team that plays a certain way every night not just one week to the next or one day to the next. I pin a lot of this lack of effort on the players however it is within the coaches grasp to manage those individual efforts.

[MarkGio]

The one Treliving complaint I have is that he congested the roster too much IMO. He complained that there wasn't enough push from the bottom (ie, prospects) but he brought excessive amounts of pro contracts to training camp and otherwise provided the bottom with no opportunities.

It's like those companies that claim there is chance for opportunities but all the high up positions are filled by outsiders