[News] Bettman upholds 20 game Wideman suspension. NHLPA files appeal to neutral arbitrator

[dino7c]

I know I would be pissed if I paid someone 540k to do nothing

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by Finger Cookin

I can't find words that express how unlikely I find this.

Yes, that was a joke. But still... as Locke spells out... if there should have been no suspension at all, what compensation do the Flames get for being without their PP QB (in green, for the comically challenged) and their $540k?

[MarkGio]

I think the league would argue that Wideman could have gotten injured at any time or possibly suspended for anything else and that the organization should govern their team with the expectation and necessary preparation that they can lose personnel at any given time during the season, therefore the leagues actions have no more bearing on the Flames standings than what can happen from chance alone

[dissentowner]

It isn't going to matter, at very best the arbitrator will call it time served. Personally I think given everything that has transpired that the arbitrator will uphold the full length.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

I think the league would argue that Wideman could have gotten injured at any time or possibly suspended for anything else and that the organization should govern their team with the expectation and necessary preparation that they can lose personnel at any given time during the season, therefore the leagues actions have no more bearing on the Flames standings than what can happen from chance alone

Gary is a lawyer, I think even he would know better than that.

Thats like saying that no one ever owes restitution to anyone because they could have just as easily been hit by a car.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Fine the Flames 540K for not following concussion protocol. Problem solved.

[Aegypticus]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

It isn't going to matter, at very best the arbitrator will call it time served. Personally I think given everything that has transpired that the arbitrator will uphold the full length.

I'm trying not to be ultra cynical here, but aren't you basically implying that the independent arbitrator is going to side with the NHL so as not to rock the boat? What's the point of the entire process in that case?

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by dino7c

I know I would be pissed if I paid someone 540k to do nothing

All money Wideman loses is redirected to the players' emergency assistance fund. There is no scenario where the Flames keep that lost salary.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

All money Wideman loses is redirected to the players' emergency assistance fund. There is no scenario where the Flames keep that lost salary.

we get it, we are discussing a scenario where the arbitrator says no suspension

in that case the player gets paid for not playing

[Fan in Exile]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

Yes, but it doesn't face the same scrutiny as Bettman's decision. Bettman had to consider how the league handles the concussion portion. The league also had to consider the ref union and their upcoming CBA. The arbitrator just has to consider similar incidents and how those incidents were dealt with in order to find a fair and similar consequence.

Based on Muzzin and Weber incidents, it wouldn't surprise me if Wideman is ruled to have no games suspended. The problem is that the league'a disciplinary rulings are so inconsistent as to who gets punished and they come with varying degrees of punishments. This is a cake walk for the arbitrator when looking at similar events.

For example, the next guy who uses throat killing gestures on the ice should appeal because Kadri just got slapped with a fine. In Wideman's case, at least two identical situations went unpunished. The arbitrator looks more at this, not "legal consequences" as it affects concussions. The arbitrator is in no position to be legally vulnerable if players are getting concussed? It's not his league?

Not difficult to distinguish your "identical situations." Bettman was quite clear in doing so. Most objective observers see a clear distinction notwithstanding some strong opinions here and Burke's bluster.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Fine the Flames 540K for not following concussion protocol. Problem solved.

good luck with that considering every team is guilty of it almost every night

[taxbuster]

Gary took his time - not because he wanted to get the Wideman decision right - but because he wanted to attempt to protect the League's position for the upcoming lawsuit around concussions with former players.

Among other things, if players can "say they're OK" and go out and play anyway (even possibly over the objections of the training staff, as Wideman was alleged to have done) what part does the NHL play in liability arising from that? His answer would be at best a negligible part.

This decision, in and of itself, is relatively irrelevant to him - yes, if he can win he wants to; if he loses, he shrugs his shoulders at the NHLOA and says "Well, what can I do? It was overruled." Neither of those positions hurts him. The ONLY one that does is where he compounds the concussion issue by a statement in this case that then gets used against him.

Arguably, the position he took wrt the possibility (likelihood?) that Wideman was concussed but he still knew what he was doing, will cause him some problems.

Bettman had much bigger fish to fry than Wideman.

*If* the hearings in fact take two days with the Arbitrator, I wouldn't expect a decision on Monday. Depends on whether the Arb wants to look at facts or at rules. A finding of fact is probably quicker than a finding which needs to interpret rules.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

It isn't going to matter, at very best the arbitrator will call it time served. Personally I think given everything that has transpired that the arbitrator will uphold the full length.

I agree. Will likely just be upheld.

I am curious though if it goes the other way how the whole compensation breaks down.

Anyone know if this is written into the CBA somewhere? I would imagine something would be?

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Aegypticus

I'm trying not to be ultra cynical here, but aren't you basically implying that the independent arbitrator is going to side with the NHL so as not to rock the boat? What's the point of the entire process in that case?

Well how many games has Wideman missed now? I am saying at best guess the most it gets reduced is 10 games. Is Wideman at 10 games missed yet? He has to be close. Even if it is 11 or 12 if the arbitrator ruled it as time served it gives both sides kind of a win and everyone can just move on.

[Aegypticus]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Well how many games has Wideman missed now? I am saying at best guess the most it gets reduced is 10 games. Is Wideman at 10 games missed yet? He has to be close. Even if it is 11 or 12 if the arbitrator ruled it as time served it gives both sides kind of a win and everyone can just move on.

I think it's highly unlikely that the PA considers that a win. I also think what you're suggesting would indicate a pretty significant perversion of the process.

[FlamesAddiction]

Maybe a stupid question, but from a legal perspective, how is the neutrality of an arbitrator established? Everyone has personal biases. Even a non-hockey fan is going to have a bias (and likely not in favour of Wideman since most non-hockey fans wouldn't understand the physics of the game and one of the biggest complaints from non-hockey fans is that the game is too violent).

Is it just a matter of taking an oath?

Also, are precedents for punishment important here? I think the NHL can easily argue that they want to set a new precedent, therefore old ones don't apply.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Fan in Exile

Not difficult to distinguish your "identical situations." Bettman was quite clear in doing so. Most objective observers see a clear distinction notwithstanding some strong opinions here and Burke's bluster.

Most objective observers base their decisions on what they feel happened, not what they know can happen. Perception, distortion, confusion, and intention are cognitive processes that require expert involvement and are outside of the normal objective opinion.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Aegypticus

I think it's highly unlikely that the PA considers that a win. I also think what you're suggesting would indicate a pretty significant perversion of the process.

How so? If the arbitrator decides to find a balance so everyone can get on with things how is that a perversion? I don't think that will happen though, I think he will let the NHL govern how they handle this suspension.

[SuperMatt18]

Think the best case scenario for Wideman at this point is 15 games.

Doubt the arbitrator comes back with no suspension - the pure optics of the hit are too ugly. Especially with the softness of the concussion argument and the texts to a teammate.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Maybe a stupid question, but from a legal perspective, how is the neutrality of an arbitrator established? Everyone has personal biases. Even a non-hockey fan is going to have a bias (and likely not in favour of Wideman since most non-hockey fans wouldn't understand the physics of the game and one of the biggest complaints from non-hockey fans is that the game is too violent).

Is it just a matter of taking an oath?

Also, are precedents for punishment important here? I think the NHL can easily argue that they wants to set a new precedent, therefore old ones don't apply.

Both sides agree on who the arbitrator is going to be. That's as neutral as you can get.