2016/2017 Trade Speculation and Rumors

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Weitz

When you have a career year but never can match it again, you can't use it as a measuring stick.

It was a simple fact...

In any case, your argument is stupid. He put up 22 in 78 when he was 24. He put up 19 in 47 games at 27. The year after he put up 21. From his sophomore season until he was 30 he was averaging over 20 goals a season. In fact, from his sophomore season until his last season in Washington he put up a 22+ goal pace over 82 games.

Now, at 31, he put up 13 goals. Of course I'm hoping it was just a bad year if he stays with the Flames, but he could be one of the many many other players who declined after 30. It's not like I couldn't pick from one of the many many many other players to chose from.

I like that you're now disputing that players don't often decline at 30+ years of age. Lol.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

It was a simple fact...

In any case, your argument is stupid. He put up 22 in 78 when he was 24. He put up 19 in 47 games at 27. The year after he put up 21. From his sophomore season until he was 30 he was averaging over 20 goals a season. In fact, from his sophomore season until his last season in Washington he put up a 22+ goal pace over 82 games.

Now, at 31, he put up 13 goals. Of course I'm hoping it was just a bad year if he stays with the Flames, but he could be one of the many many other players who declined after 30. It's not like I couldn't pick from one of the many many many other players to chose from.

I like that you're now disputing that players don't often decline at 30+ years of age. Lol.

I am disputing that you are using 1 year to justify him as a 25 goal scorer. Not only that, you are not providing any information on what line he is playing on. What teams he was on. Or how much powerplay time he was getting.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Weitz

I am disputing that you are using 1 year to justify him as a 25 goal scorer. Not only that, you are not providing any information on what line he is playing on. What teams he was on. Or how much powerplay time he was getting.

I didn't call him a 25 goal scorer, I said he scored 25 goals when he was 28. A simple fact that I can't believe is being debated. Brouwer went from a 20+ goal scorer who scored 25 goals one season (and a much higher pace the year before when he was 27...you know, peak years for a lot of hockey players).

Which is stupid because I don't give two ####s about Trow Brouwer. You said my argument was ruined..somehow I don't think my argument is that controversial.

My argument is there are a lot of players who decline sharply in there 30's. Do you somehow disagree with that? Like what type of mental gymnastics do you need to take to arrive at what ever point you're trying to make.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

I didn't call him a 25 goal scorer, I said he scored 25 goals when he was 28. A simple fact that I can't believe is being debated. Brouwer went from a 20+ goal scorer who scored 25 goals one season (and a much higher pace the year before when he was 27...you know, peak years for a lot of hockey players).

Which is stupid because I don't give two ####s about Trow Brouwer. You said my argument was ruined..somehow I don't think my argument is that controversial.

My argument is there are a lot of players who decline sharply in there 30's. Do you somehow disagree with that? Like what type of mental gymnastics do you need to take to arrive at what ever point you're trying to make.

When you said "Troy Brouwer was putting up 25 goals when he was 28" it made it sound like you were saying that was his normal pace.

You are using his max career production to condemn him for scoring less goals 3 years later. Without justifying where he played this year on the flames as opposed to the contending team he was on when he scored that many goals. That is important in this discussion.

I think we agree at the end of the day with the evaluation but one has to use practical sense when using stats to justify their position.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by goflamesgo18

rounded out the top 4 and made the flames a better team.

Need to try and sign him

Not at the dollar or term he will get elsewhere.
Pay him as a 5th or 6th dman for 3 years and I'm good with it, but that's not what Stone is going to get.
So I pass.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

Lucic will probably start to slide in the last 2-3 years.

He'll be 34 at the end of the contract. While that's no spring chicken, its not completely unreasonable to expect a guy to be still playing decent at that age.

50/50 maybe.

Unfortunately you have to give out that type of term if you want to sign a guy in his late 20's that is in demand.

There are a lot of contracts around the NHL that go until players are 35+. Lucic's isn't the worst by far.

Comparing to a Flames contract, I think its more likely that Lucic will still be a good NHLer at 34 than Giordano at 38.

Suggesting he's got 3 or 4 more years before he 'starts to slide' is laughable.

He has already started to slide a bit as he has lost a step. Some guys do lose a step at this age, it happens. And it's happening to him. Just too much upper body weight and too many hits probably.

It's not that he is a garbage player now, but he costs $6M. He has one more year, two tops, where you can close your eyes and say 'no problem, you have to overpay for FAs'.

In two years he'll be an albatross. And that's fine, except for the fact that there will still be another 4 years left on his contract.

Comparing him to Giordano is laughable. Giordano is in the best shape of anyone on the Flames and is playing the best hockey of his career. And he tends to avoid the type of contact that wears on players. Also, defensemen are typically far more effective at later ages than forwards - particularly forwards that have lost a step.

Lucic has already started to deteriorate, whether you see it or not. Giordano is still arguably the Flames best player.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

Lucic will probably start to slide in the last 2-3 years.

He'll be 34 at the end of the contract. While that's no spring chicken, its not completely unreasonable to expect a guy to be still playing decent at that age.

50/50 maybe.

Unfortunately you have to give out that type of term if you want to sign a guy in his late 20's that is in demand.

There are a lot of contracts around the NHL that go until players are 35+. Lucic's isn't the worst by far.

Comparing to a Flames contract, I think its more likely that Lucic will still be a good NHLer at 34 than Giordano at 38.

Giordano at 33 is by far a better NHLer than a 28 year old Lucic so I think you are way off here. Gio is a 40+ pt Dman that plays in all situations against teams best players. In the next 5 years it is unlikely that he finds himself as a 5-6 Dman. Likely he is a decent top 4 guy right until the end of his contract.

Lucic is already struggling to maintain a 2nd line position with the Oilers. He is pathetically slow and I have doubts he is going to find a step at 30+ considering the miles he has put on his body. Lucic is already at risk of sliding out of the Oilers top 2 lines and it would t surprise me to see him on the 4th line half way through that deal.

[Erick Estrada]

I think it's fair to say that the Gio contract is somewhat frightening in the long term for Flames fans but the circumstances are much different in that he was the team's top defenseman when the deal was signed, is still today one year into that deal, and will be likely their best defenseman for a few more years. Meanwhile Lucic is a complementary player that is not nearly as important to the success of the Oilers as Gio is to the Flames and I tend to believe that even if Gio slips to a 3rd pairing defenseman at the end of the deal that will still be better than Lucic who I feel may be a pressbox player well before that contract expires.

[Vinny01]

Caught some of the Alzner discussion between Boomer and Pinder this morning. Boomer indicated he spoke with Alzner (perhaps an in air interview I missed?)

Alzner advised winning and a good city to raise a family are his top 2 priorities. Lead to speculation that Calgary could be pretty high on his list of teams.

Some positive mostly negative reaction on the text line. For me it all comes down to the contract. 4x4 I can get behind it. 5x5 that is a no go. Alzner is a leftie so the fit might not be there unless Brodie shifts back to the right side?

Alzner vs Stone vs Russell. Assuming all get the same deal who is preferred?

[Toonage]

I don't get to see a lot of Alzner. Hows his shot? That's one thing missing from the Flames back end (that Stone albeit briefly provided).

[Erick Estrada]

I just don't think Alzner is nearly as good a player as the contract he's likely going to expect in free agency. I'm a firm believer that the winners in free agency are the teams that don't partake at all or at the most sign 2nd tier UFA's for more realistic contracts. Last year was awful when you look at what the Oilers, Canucks, and Flames (to a lesser extent) did.

[StrykerSteve]

I'm hoping they get both Stone and Alzner. Could definitely use a 6'2, 214lb shutdown defenceman. Question is what kind of dollars will he be looking for? Makes 2.8M/yr now, if they can sign him for 4.25, I'd be comfortable. Problem is, he'll likely be offered more on the open market. Perhaps Calgary has an advantage with being a former Hitmen captain. Bringing back two Hitmen in Stone and Alzner would be pretty cool and would really solidify the defence.

[StrykerSteve]

Originally Posted by Toonage

I don't get to see a lot of Alzner. Hows his shot? That's one thing missing from the Flames back end (that Stone albeit briefly provided).

Alzner is by no means an offensive dynamo. He's a shutdown guy, that pots 10-20 points a year. But he's like +130 or so since his days in the WHL and AHL, and Calgary could definitely use that, IMO. He was drafted fifth overall in the Backlund draft.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I just don't think Alzner is nearly as good a player as the contract he's likely going to expect in free agency. I'm a firm believer that the winners in free agency are the teams that don't partake at all or at the most sign 2nd tier UFA's for more realistic contracts. Last year was awful when you look at what the Oilers, Canucks, and Flames (to a lesser extent) did.

David Backes (33) - 38 p / 74 games / $6.0m per
Andrew Ladd (31) - 31 p / 78 games / $5.5m per
Kyle Okposo (29) - 45p / 65 games / $6.0m per
Troy Brouwer (31) - 25p / 74 games / $4.5m per
Loui Eriksson (31) - 24p / 65 games / $6.0m per
Mikkel Boedker (27) - 26p / 81 games / $4.0m per
Milan Lucic (28) - 50p / 82 games / $6.0m per


Just stay away. It's ugly.

The best of the bunch were Lucic and Okposo, and even their point totals are no bargain at $6 million per.

[Vinny01]

The only time I think high profile UFA signings work out is when a player really wants to play for a specific team and doesn't take the UFA premium. Dan Hamhuis signings with the Canucks is the best example I can think of. He was targeted by several teams in free agency but it was clear that he wanted to go to Vancouver. He signed a 6 year deal at $4.5M per.

If for some reason Alzner really wants to play in Calgary and takes a deal under $4M per then it is a win. If he wants to play in Calgary but the Flames need to be the highest bidder the result is not going to turn out well for the Flames if they feel the need to get him my any means necessary

[flamesfan55]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

David Backes (33) - 38 p / 74 games / $6.0m per
Andrew Ladd (31) - 31 p / 78 games / $5.5m per
Kyle Okposo (29) - 45p / 65 games / $6.0m per
Troy Brouwer (31) - 25p / 74 games / $4.5m per
Loui Eriksson (31) - 24p / 65 games / $6.0m per
Mikkel Boedker (27) - 26p / 81 games / $4.0m per
Milan Lucic (28) - 50p / 82 games / $6.0m per


Just stay away. It's ugly.

The best of the bunch were Lucic and Okposo, and even their point totals are no bargain at $6 million per.

Probably better to use Defensemen if your comparing contracts rather then a bunch of forwards tough to compare. Especially when your comparing a defensive defensemen.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by StrykerSteve

I'm hoping they get both Stone and Alzner. Could definitely use a 6'2, 214lb shutdown defenceman. Question is what kind of dollars will he be looking for? Makes 2.8M/yr now, if they can sign him for 4.25, I'd be comfortable. Problem is, he'll likely be offered more on the open market. Perhaps Calgary has an advantage with being a former Hitmen captain. Bringing back two Hitmen in Stone and Alzner would be pretty cool and would really solidify the defence.

I think getting both Stone and Alzner would be nice if the Flames can get both guys for under $4M (each). The team should then be in a position to allow a Kulak, or Anderson male the team and ply a regular shift.

Ideally both Alzner and Stone are good number 5's. Combining both of them with Calgarys top 3 makes a pretty formidable blueline

[Poe969]

If there is a way to fit both Alzner and Stone, that would be awesome. I'd try both of them with Brodie to see who fits better (likely Stone) and then make Alzner your top shut down guy. Having 2 guys like that would really help having a rookie in the #6 spot, especially an offensive one like Kylington. Either way, having a "stay at home " guy paired with a rookie is a good idea IMO.

Maybe the Flames can make a trade that would include Grubaur and the rights to Alzner.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

David Backes (33) - 38 p / 74 games / $6.0m per
Andrew Ladd (31) - 31 p / 78 games / $5.5m per
Kyle Okposo (29) - 45p / 65 games / $6.0m per
Troy Brouwer (31) - 25p / 74 games / $4.5m per
Loui Eriksson (31) - 24p / 65 games / $6.0m per
Mikkel Boedker (27) - 26p / 81 games / $4.0m per
Milan Lucic (28) - 50p / 82 games / $6.0m per


Just stay away. It's ugly.

The best of the bunch were Lucic and Okposo, and even their point totals are no bargain at $6 million per.

Worst part is not necessarily the down seasons for the amount paid but the terms on some of those deals. That may go down as one of the all time worst UFA classes when it comes down to the term/money handed out and what most of those players will likely provide through the duration of the deals.

[StrykerSteve]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I think getting both Stone and Alzner would be nice if the Flames can get both guys for under $4M. The team should then be in a position to allow a Kulak, or Anderson male the team and ply a regular shift.

Ideally both Alzner and Stone are good number 5's. Combining both of them with Calgarys top 3 makes a pretty formidable blueline

I'd suggest he's a top 4 four guy under normal circumstances. He pretty consistently played against the opposition's top players in Washington. I think the biggest knock on him, from reading up online, is he had surgery for a sports hernia and never fully recovered this season.

https://www.russianmachineneverbreak...le-bit-slower/

So that's certainly a bit of a red flag, but I'm one to believe that it's a bit of a blessing in disguise as a rough season coming off injury may allow for the Flames to nab both Stone and Alzner for lower than expected value.